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Tom Naccarato

Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« on: December 11, 2008, 02:08:09 AM »
Actually just more or less going through the course in my mind--what an amazing place. My second favorite course in the world. The sport comes alive there because the place IS actually alive. Almost like a living, breathing entity.

O.K. some thoughts:

Some months back, while lurking, I noticed where someone was expounding the best path of choice on the Bottle Hole, I find it to be more fitting, almost like the path not taken.

Which is better? Left or Right? (I'm asking.)

The first time I saw the course was when I was driven by it, a few days before I actually played it in a friend's very memorable birthday tournament. I'm still aghast at what my eyes saw on that first visit, but little did I know what to expect when I actually stepped on to The Valley tee to experience it for the first time, first hand. Of course we all have our duffer's stories, mine is half-skulling it off of the first tee, deep into some tall Long Island fescue. Yes, nerves got the best of me and it didn't end there. The second I got on that green, I was instantly hooked forever. The National does that to you. Each shot that comes is like one decision after another--strategy just can't get any better then that, even if your scuffing the ball on every hole. "Breath Deep." "Relax" "Your going to be fine....." "Oh shit! Where is that going to go and what kind of trouble am I going to be in now? ? ? ?" and,  "I must look like a complete idiot!"

Only your not. for God's sake man, get it together..... Your playing the National Golf Links of America!"

One of the best ways to see a golf course is to see it--not necessarily play it--but actually look, feel, observe it with someone that knows the course like the back of his hand. I've been fortunate to see the course--without playing it--this very way, and I can honestly say that the National is the highest University of American Golf Course Architecture--the best classroom. Those two diferent times were with Tom Paul, Bill Salinetti and Matt Burroughs. The second time was with Uncle George--and let me tell you that there is no better way to see the course with someone who loves the place more then Uncle George. he is the one that tipped me off of somethings I didn't know. However my time on the course with messers, Salinetti, Burroughs and Paul, the intricacies of the course at hand; well its nothing short then the only way to study such a great place as the National Golf Links of America.

During that first played round, by the #6 tee, I was finally able to laugh at myself... It showed me just how fallible I really was as a human being and not because the hole is a push-over; I was just pissed off at myself enough to NOT say it out loud, But I'm sure my color is more of a beet red. "Why aren't you guys talking in my back-swing? ? ?" "I need to feel at home"--and, I hit it stiff to about 6 feet." Only I have to deal with a portion of this massive horseshoe contour that is standing between me and the hole and is preventing me from greatness. And of course, No guts, no glory, I miss the putt, but get a round-saving breath that says, have some fun--your about to experience what the National is all about. Its all good though because they forgot to give me back my golf ball when I was done.

Getting back to the 8th--The Bottle Hole' what are your thoughts on this hole? I have mine, and honestly, I do think the hole is somewhat maimed. It's not the same hole as it once was--even though its still a great hole. But there is one huge deciding factor to this. (it's quiz time!)     

Name this one feature that has been altered greatly and I think it is the one concerning factor of whether its better to go left or right.

Lets here your thoughts.....
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 02:11:30 AM by Tom Naccarato »

TEPaul

Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2008, 08:05:17 AM »
"Getting back to the 8th--The Bottle Hole' what are your thoughts on this hole? I have mine, and honestly, I do think the hole is somewhat maimed. It's not the same hole as it once was--even though its still a great hole. But there is one huge deciding factor to this. (it's quiz time!)     

Name this one feature that has been altered greatly and I think it is the one concerning factor of whether its better to go left or right.

Lets here your thoughts....."



Probably the feature I'm aware of that's greatly changed is the original tee. I've heard (actually from George Bahto, and possibly another person) that the original tee was to the left of the 7th green and the hole was somewhat shorter from there, but has anyone who can comment on it now ever tried to hit a tee shot from over there?

Well, I have as well as from around the same place on the 12th hole. (That's another subject and another opinon but if you want to hear it just ask).

From the present Bottle Hole tees on the right of the 7th green I'd say the choice and option of going right or left of the inline mid-fairway bunkers is about as well balanced as any distinct tee shot options I've ever seen. But I suspect the degree to which it's well balanced has a whole lot to do with how long one is off the tee (all the long drivers I've ever played with at NLGA almost always seem to go left). I'm not long even if I played around scratch for around twenty years (as an example, under normal and neutral conditions I would never count on getting more than about 250 yards out of a drive and a bit less than that on straight carry). So for me on the Bottle hole I'd go right as much as left. One of the problems with going left is unless you're long off the tee, even though you can get left of the inline bunkers pretty easily you may not get up on the rise longer left and if not that gives you a shot from the left fairway where you have something of a fairway rise right in front of you. For that reason I probably went right of the bunkers as much or more than left, and I actually prefer that angle of approach because I felt like coming from the right I was playing more away from the huge drop off on the right of the green and not so much at it which is what I felt like coming from the left fairway.

This is a hole where there's never been that much agreement which side is best to drive it to or appraoch the green from probably something like the old 11th at ANGC and that balance or equilbrium of distinct options or even indecision is a very good thing strategically in the realm of architecture, in my opinion.

Another thing about the Bottle Hole to me was that when I played a lot of tournament golf for some reason I never thought all that much about "where not to hit it" but on the Bottle Hole I sure did. It is not good at all in most cases to miss that green short which inevitably puts you in those front bunkers. Depending on where you get in them it can be one of the diciest recovery shots I'm aware of even though I always felt I was a good bunker player. If I got in those front bunkers my very first thought was to just make bogey at least and not worse than that.

The Principle's Nose bunker is also something of an enigma to me on #8. GeorgeB claims that Macdonald generally placed his PN bunkers around 80 yards short of his greens even though I just can't understand, if that was true, why he did that. To me that generally isn't the ideal location for them on most of the holes I've seen them even if today with some really long golfers they have come into play in that area. But my conception and thought is if they are that close to a green why would any thinking long driver decide to bring them into play since he will always have 100 yards or less coming up short of the PN?

By the way, if you'd like to know the dimensions of the Bottle Hole's tee shot options (unless they've significantly expanded that fairway recently), the fairway in the general tee shot area is around 70 yards from left to right, the inline bunkers are about 4-6 paces wide and the last one in the line which is essentially placed perpindicular to the line of play is 13 paces (yards) wide. I don't know what the distance is to carry that last one from the tips because that option never was in my shot option inventory! ;)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 08:22:23 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2008, 08:37:56 AM »
Another thing I'd say about NGLA after pulling my memories of it back from over fifty years ago and comparing it to all the other golf courses I've played since all over the place, is to me at least, the first three holes certainly and perhaps even the first eight holes (then including a few on the back) truly are some of the most unique looking and also in play as any string of holes I'm aware of. Some who see the place for the first time may even think of them as strange but to me their uniqueness and yes probably oddness adds up to making both them and that golf course one of the most interesting I've ever known. It's probably why NGLA is NGLA and so enduringly famous even if something of a time warp.

Here's a question for some of you guys to guess at that probably says something interesting. When I went back there maybe around 1998 or 1999 to play in the National's Singles Tournament after not having seen the course in around forty years what do you think the two holes were I remembered the best? One I remembered pretty well but the other I remembered with total clarity! The hint is the both share a distinct architectural theme.

TEPaul

Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2008, 08:50:50 AM »
By the way, holes at NGLA that share some distinct tee shot options that are as vastly different from one another and are also readily used by even good players more than most any other holes I've seen elsewhere are #1, #2, #8, #14, even #15 and #17. This is all sort of ala the optional tee shot excellence, balance and equilibrium of a Riviera #10. And to me this is a truly good and interesting and important thing in the realm of conceptual/strategic golf course architecture.

BN:
One of the most interesting tee shot options I've ever seen was hitting driver right on #2 and ending up in that small fairway bowl right and just underneath the green. But if the USGA goes through on this seeming implication to ban wedges of more than 60 degrees that particular tee shot option is going to be out for me!  ;)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 08:54:14 AM by TEPaul »

K. Krahenbuhl

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Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2008, 09:16:22 AM »
Here's a question for some of you guys to guess at that probably says something interesting. When I went back there maybe around 1998 or 1999 to play in the National's Singles Tournament after not having seen the course in around forty years what do you think the two holes were I remembered the best? One I remembered pretty well but the other I remembered with total clarity! The hint is the both share a distinct architectural theme.

#3 and #16?

TEPaul

Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2008, 09:21:58 AM »
BING BONG!!

You're a WINNA KyleK.

First prize is a week in Philadelphia and second prize is two weeks in Philadelphia. Take your pick!

Do you think the fact that #3 and particularly #16 were the two holes I remembered with real clarity forty years later says anything about the mystery and perhaps exhileration of totally blind shots to someone who was most definitely not trying to OVER-think these architectural matters back then?

I would!
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 09:25:43 AM by TEPaul »

Tom Naccarato

Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2008, 09:38:10 AM »
Tom,
Maybe Uncle George can join in here, but I would say that the reason for the Principle's Nose being set at 80 yards out, at least from the right side, on #8, that it was a blinding feature. George explained to me that at one time the PN was much taller, and had been changed by Karl Olson. don't you think a tad of partial blindness would make a difference trying to carry the green-fronting bunker if one chose to go right?

The funny thing is that up until Uncle George and I had gone out there, I didn't know that was a PN. It had been altered that much that the look of the bunker itself just didn't look PN enough.

Tom Huckaby

Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2008, 09:45:57 AM »
Great stuff re NGLA... but Tommy, if this is second favorite, what is #1 favorite?


K. Krahenbuhl

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Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2008, 09:53:40 AM »
BING BONG!!

You're a WINNA KyleK.

First prize is a week in Philadelphia and second prize is two weeks in Philadelphia. Take your pick!

Do you think the fact that #3 and particularly #16 were the two holes I remembered with real clarity forty years later says anything about the mystery and perhaps exhileration of totally blind shots to someone who was most definitely not trying to OVER-think these architectural matters back then?

I would!

No doubt it does.  Since my one and only trip around the National these are the two holes that consume most of my thoughts on the course as well.  The uncertainty of it all is definitely exciting.

TEPaul

Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2008, 09:57:51 AM »
"Since my one and only trip around the National these are the two holes that consume most of my thoughts on the course as well.  The uncertainty of it all is definitely exciting."


Kyle:

Very interesting. Are you aware of the remarkable evolution of the aspect of blindness in golf from being essentially prized in the 19th century to becoming taboo in the 20th century?

Tom Naccarato

Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2008, 09:58:23 AM »
Tom, Obviously the greatest course of them all; the one which all courses emulate--and we'll get to that one again. Its been a long, long time since I fawned over the Old Course.

Tom Naccarato

Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2008, 10:00:38 AM »
And that's my whole point to this on the 8th--the blindness that once existed there. Did it partially exist there, and did it make a difference to those who didn't have the game to be challenged by blindness? (Or partial blindness in this case.)

Tom Huckaby

Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2008, 10:02:50 AM »
Tom, Obviously the greatest course of them all; the one which all courses emulate--and we'll get to that one again. Its been a long, long time since I fawned over the Old Course.

Excellent.  That was my guess... but you do surprise some times.   ;D

K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2008, 10:06:07 AM »
Kyle:

Very interesting. Are you aware of the remarkable evolution of the aspect of blindness in golf from being essentially prized in the 19th century to becoming taboo in the 20th century?

It is a bit curious, isn't it?

TEPaul

Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2008, 10:19:19 AM »
"And that's my whole point to this on the 8th--the blindness that once existed there. Did it partially exist there, and did it make a difference to those who didn't have the game to be challenged by blindness? (Or partial blindness in this case.)"


TommyN:

Blindness once on the Bottle Hole in what respect?

If you are talking about on the tee shot I'd say that is somewhat doubtful and historically confusing. The reason why probably isn't that much different from the 11th hole. I'm not certain of it but I believe in the beginning the berm along both sides of the road crossing the 8th (and the 11th) was definitely not as high as it is today. The reason it was increased in height should be pretty obvious to most of us who've seen those holes. The real mystery is exactly when the height was increased and even who did it or recommeded it. Some think it might've been Nicklaus. Also, some good students of NGLA believe Perry Maxwell did some things on that course but it seems like they either aren't completely sure about what or else they just don't feel like admitting it.  ;)

There is another sort of historical bad smell surrounding NGLA, and that is around the last year or so of his life the club essentially threw Macdonald out. This is promoted and seemingly confirmed by some who are locals and would probably be far more aware of that than most of the rest of us who are not local to NGLA and Southampton. I used to even know the name of the guy who essentially took control and essentially booted Macdonald but I cannot remember it right now. But I do know where to go to find it out again.

Matter of fact, this kind of thing for C.B. apparently wasn't uncommon. There's little question Shinnecock basically booted him or put him on double maximum probation for punching the shit outta some jerk in the bar and there's no question at all that C.B. and a really powerful guy at The Creek got into an extremely serious tussle of opinion in 1926 that resulted in C.B. basically resigning from the club of which he was the president of the corporation (Kellenworth Corp) which owned the place. The story still floats around Piping Rock too that Macdonald got into a fight with the extremely powerful polo interests for having his eye on their two polo fields for golf holes. The latter likely explains the very interstingly SHORT Road Hole (#8) at Piping Rock. Did you realize that as of a month or so ago, a photo was found (BY THE CREEK's EXCELLENT HISTORIAN, GEORGE "MOTORMOUTH" HOLLAND") that seems to show that the original tee shot on the Piping Rock Road Hole might have been designed to play aggressively right smack over the minature grandstand that was right there (to mimic the play over the old railroad sheds of TOC's 17th)?

The good news about the latter (The Creek Club) is as a reason for resigning from The Creek, C.B. actually offered (perhaps as an excuse) the fact that he wanted to hie on out to his bungalow in Bermuda to write his memoirs which turned out to be his great book, "Scotland's Gift Golf."

A month after C.B. summarily resigned from The Creek the club decided to make him an Honorary member.

And now we have a recently rediscovered letter from Piper or Oakley to Alan Wilson proposing that even despite what Piper called "all the undiplomatic things he's done" perhaps they might consider offering him the position as the chairman of one of the seminal meetings of the new USGA Green Section Committee in New York. Whether they actually offered it to him in the end is apparently unknow but I think we do know that he never was that. Also in an earlier letter to Alan Wilson (early 1920s) Piper said he was going to visit NGLA and Macdonald. Wilson wrote Piper after he returned asking him if Macdonald tried to bite his head off and Piper responded that he didn't do that but C.B did allow as "....everyone was a bunch of idiots".   ;)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 10:43:46 AM by TEPaul »

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2008, 10:32:47 AM »
I think you are thinking about the PN in the context of today, not in terms of the 19-teens and 20's.

The 70-80-yard, short of the green location was on double plateau holes - virtually always at that yardage if, indeed, the bunker was put in. Not all DP holes had the PN.

I think the PNs were in play in the old days but today I think I would term them as a "visual annoyance" more than anything else.

The PN on hole #8 is a one-of-a-kind for that "style" hole. It was an afterthought of CBM's when players were driving beyond that great string of fairway bunkering. It was not used on a Bottle hole anyplace else.

If you ever get there notice how the PN on hole 11 has been "lowered" - I've been trying to convince them (Bill S and the powers to be) to restore he height of that bunker but more importantly, to reestablish the shape and the height of the "sand-hill" before the 17th. (I photo-shopped that one for Bill a while back, putting it back to about what it once was (according to a couple of old pictures I have).

I think you will find the Sahara hole at Old Macdonald (the 3rd) captures the feel and play of the Sahara at National, even though it is quite different. The drive at Old Macdonald is much more treacherous and the falloff once over the "hill" is very severe and a couple of very interesting bowl-depressions to boot.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

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Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2008, 10:40:57 AM »
" I used to even know the name of the guy who essentially took control and essentially booted Macdonald but I cannot .....  "

...... he was the attorney, Wayne Johnson, and was pres for just one year (1938-39) - had been a CBM nemesis and had bee trying to get CBM out of controlling NGLA.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

TEPaul

Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2008, 10:54:33 AM »
"The 70-80-yard, short of the green location was on double plateau holes - virtually always at that yardage if, indeed, the bunker was put in. Not all DP holes had the PN.

I think the PNs were in play in the old days but today I think I would term them as a "visual annoyance" more than anything else."


Uncle George:

Thank you very much for making that distinction regarding the placement of PN bunkers on double plateau green holes. That would explain why there is one in that position on NGLA's #12 and The Creek's #15. But it does not explain why NGLA's #8 PN is also in that position or why Macdonald recommended one be installed on The Creek's #3 (originally I thought he'd recommended the PN for The Creek's 5th but when I went back and checked it was recommeded for the 3rd) unless that original green (#3) actually was a double plateau (before Flynn seemingly changed that green to what it is now). But that seems somewhat odd because #15 was a double plateau green, and that would have made two on one course.

On the other hand, I guess it is not beyond the realm of possibility that he might've used the same green design twice on a single course perhaps with a wrinkle or difference (for instance like flipping around the tiers). I think we can sure see The Creek's 1st green is essentially a regular right to left redan design at the end of a par 4 while #8 is a Reverse Redan par 3.

How about Piping's double plateau green on #6? I don't remember a PN 70-80 yards short of that one but maybe my memory is failing me.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 10:58:04 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2008, 11:21:39 AM »
George:

Thanks, that certainly is the name of the guy I heard about.

That brings up another interesting point about the life and times of C.B. Macdonald. George Holland occasionally reminds me that C.B. was so powerful by reputation or influence or whatever that nobody dared to question him or try to push him around but I keep reminding George that I don't think that was necessarily true in a number of cases.

I grew up right there on Long Island around Piping Rock and The Creek and all those old family names and I knew and know most of those names and more importantly who many of those people really were and I can pretty much guarantee you that nobody, BUT NOBODY, could push around some of those guys if they didn't feel like being pushed around. Some of them were basically at the absolute pinnacle of Amercian power and influence at that time.

But some people see the same people in different lights. I was down there at Swede's shop in Southampton one time and he was telling me about some of the characters around NGLA he'd caddied for back in the 40's, 50s and 60s. One in particular he was waxing on and on about as maybe the greatest guy he ever ran across.

I said: "Swede, what was his name?"

Swede said: "His name was James Knott."

I said: "Excuse me Swede, but James Knott was one of my father's best friends and his frequent playing partner at NGLA, at The Links, at Piping and at Seminole, and in my opinion Jimmy Knott was probably the biggest SOB I've ever known in my life."

As a kid he treated me like shit every time he saw me and finally when I was older (maybe around 19) I was playing at Meadowbrook with my mother one day and Knott must have thought we got in his way somehow. That night at a party (by this time he was pretty old but he was still the great big guy with the awesome reputation for insulting people and actually getting into fights and beating people up). Matter of fact, Knott looked remarkably like C.B. Macdonald.

So that night at a dinner party he takes off on me and particularly my mother again for getting in his way. My father was saying stuff like: "Jeesus, Jimmy would you lighten up a bit?" Well, he wouldn't. The guy could really drink and he probably had a snootful and he just kept at it about my mother and me getting in his way, and then I totally lost my temper and got up and said:

"Look you F...ing SOB why don't you and I go outside right now and I'm going to kick the shit outta you."

That didn't actually come off but I'll tell you what, Uncle George, it was definitely a really effective way to break up a perfectly good dinner party early while we were all having coffee and after dinner drinks in some parlor or whatever!.   ;)   

In those days after dinner the men traditionally went into one room and the women to another. My outburst, however, actually got all the men and all the women together in the same room pretty danged fast. For that I always figured I might've had something to do with streamlining or doing away with those kinds of ridiculous distinctions back then!  :)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 11:36:45 AM by TEPaul »

George_Bahto

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Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2008, 11:32:12 AM »
Macdonald put the PN on #8 at National wherever HE thought it should be (at that time) ..... main thing it was placed so the big hitter, hitting beyond the regular string of bunkering, would have to contend with yet another hazard.

Occasionally there were two double plateau style greens (of sorts) on the same course (North Shore CC on Long Island comes to mind (Raynor) - they're right across the cart path from on another on that course)

There may not have been one at Piping Rock - I'd have to check my old aerials.

Raynor often used, what I consider, a 2-shot Redan (like Creek #1, which is pretty mild one) ..... 12 at Fishers Island is a beauty as is the 17th at Essex County (very similar to Fishers Island's 12) and even the 18th at the Knoll is a good 2-shot Redan.

These 2-shot Redans by SR were often on the finishing holes of a course - uphill, deep bunker in front - sometimes a kicker-shoulder, sometime just an off-center "ramp" up to the greens. Hardly ever did these style finishing holes did not have the typical fall away Redan-style green. The holes were tough enuf and didn't need the additional problem of a falling off green.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Peter Pallotta

Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2008, 12:12:50 PM »
"The sport comes alive there because the place IS actually alive. Almost like a living, breathing entity."

Tom N - I've read a lot about NGLA on here, but that's a very striking description that I don't think I've ever read before.

Can you (and TE, George, Kyle) give me a little more thoughts on what makes it such an alive and breathing place?

What other courses in America would you describe as almost living entities?

Thanks
Peter

TEPaul

Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2008, 01:19:43 PM »
Peter:

To me NGLA (as an entity or whatever ;) ) is technically no more alive than any other golf course I'm familiar with.

What does come alive there far more than most courses is the way the architecture and the maintenance practices tend to make the ball do a whole lot more and more varied things (options) effectively.

What I'm talking is interesting bounces and run and such that's produced by interesting architecture combined with maintenance practices (F&F) that highlight the architecture through greater movement of the golf ball. I call the latter basically the Ideal Maintenance Meld (IMM). I think it's a huge factor on most courses but particularly on courses that have really cool architecture like NGLA.

Of course there're more details involved than just that basic generalization but anyway. For instance while walking a couple of courses around here the other day with my old friend Kye Goalby, he pointed out the importance of what he referred to as "counter-slopes" on various greens.

If anyone wants a really good example of "counter-slopes" think Pine Valley's #2 green. Those slopes with their counter slopes basically tie it all together and make for approach shots, recoveries around the green and putts from various parts of the green to other parts essentially a potential imagination explosion! That kind of thing with proper maintenance practices makes for golf that is the most exciting, challenging, and potentially fun-filled as can be found in the game.

Most people may not know to get into that kind of architectural detail but I think these kinds of things (and others) are what have made some of the great courses we talk about on here as enduringly well respected as they are.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 01:31:38 PM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2008, 02:41:02 PM »
Tom - thanks.

Two things. First, that last line (in reference to "counter-slopes") really hit home for me, i.e. I'm one of those people who doesn't know to get into that kind of architectural detail, which details have helped make the great courses as "enduringly well respected as they are."   I need to learn more details...

Second, at the back of my mind in asking you and Tom N and the others the question was a comment of yours on the "supporting the spectacular" thread, i.e.

"I think a lot of this might fall into the category known as "variety" whether that includes the occasional offering of the "spectacular" or otherwise. I think a golfer can probably be actually worn out by being constantly offered the "spectacular" in the course of a round of golf whether it appears to him to be mostly natural or mostly man-made or even something in between.

This is why I think courses like Crystal Downs or even The Creek Club are so interesting. Their natural variety or even the vastly different "feel" (or feelings) on parts of the course are so distinct from one another. Some may even say that one section is "weak" compared to another section for some reason but put together into a whole they offer an interesting "symbiosis" that really does make the whole so much more interesting to most all golfers than just the components parts looked at individually!"

That has really stuck with me. Does NGLA have some of this going on?

Peter

TEPaul

Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2008, 06:38:02 PM »
"That has really stuck with me. Does NGLA have some of this going on?"


Peter:

Very thoughtful question there. I guess I'd say NGLA's overall aura or feel is more consistent to me throughout than say The Creek or Maidstone or Crystal Downs or even next door Shinnecock to a lesser degree. In those first three there's more of a difference or real distinction in feel and aura on different parts of those courses or as you play through their routing sequence. Another one to include that way, actually bigtime, is Friar's Head.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 06:42:13 PM by TEPaul »

Tom Naccarato

Re: Just happened to be dreaming some thoughts of NGLA......
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2008, 09:36:11 PM »
Peter,
In my opinion, there are only two courses that I have played in my life that felt like someone, some higher-power was "tilting the board back and forth" so-to-speak. This would be The Old Course of St. Andrews and The National Golf Links of America. I say this because these seemingly described museum pieces, which are still ticking--still don't fail to entertain nor disappoint the very best golfers in the world that can dominate them on length alone. Pine Valley, Merion and Friar's Head are similar for me, they are blessed places. But these other two are ethereal to some extent.

It takes a leap of faith of sorts to play these places because they always seem present you with a shot that your not totally comfortable with, yet are more then excited to give it a shot; give it a try, expense yourself and take your golf to the next level. They make you want to play shots you are not familiar with, yet are willing to try, even if this might be your only visit of this masterful place in your lifetime. I could go on about standing on the 3rd tee of NGLA, trying to decide where exactly I want to hit it. The same can be said on many of the opening front nine holes on the Old Course, where your picking out a branch of whin which to hit at. You see, there is no doubt I can hit at the direction of those marks--making me a better driver of the golf ball then I could ever hope to be. The course is calling for me to hit it here, hit it there and if I miss, I still have some other really cool strategy which to play from. You see, that is what strategy to me is all about. Picking the path you want to take, and carrying that strategy out. These holes defend themselves, almost as if they are throwing the defense at you, but in a fair way? (I hope I'm making sense)

My point in example:One of the holes which Tom Paul and Kyle describe as being the holes which they tend to gravitate to--the 14th, The Narrows, features a good amount of blindness if you are not long off of the tee. You see, this was a very difficult shot for me with a club which I'm not really 100% sure of myself hitting--in my case, a longer iron, which I tend to pull or block shots with. Its a very inconsistent club for me--the longer ones. Well, I'm blind to the hole. I can't see a thing, yet, for some uncanny reason, I'm confident about hitting this club, no different then I am when I have a putter in my hands and I know I'm going to sink a twenty-footer. Its called confidence, and I've got it. Why? Because I'm focused and because this golf course has literally got me laughing at myself.

Now mind you I'm playing golf with a pretty tough competitor in his own right--a former Mid-Am Champion, and he's on higher ground looking at me. I lay into this shot, coming up with some sort of masterful swing which propels the ball off of the club face effortlessly, almost as if it didn't make a sound--THE SWEET SPOT. The ball jets of into blindness over the hill. I look at my partner, the former Mid-Am Champ, and he is looking at my shot, and he and the caddie near him are going, like motioning for the ball to go in. Apparently, not in my view, the ball almost holed out. The only thing I can see is the thoughts and the emotions around me detailing a scene; an event, in this case which I cannot see.  It didn't matter if the ball went in or not to me at that point--the golf course just dictated to me an event happening. There was a certain freedom about it, and of course, I hit the flag and it bounded off to the side presenting me with a putt of some 12 feet, compared to being in the hole, which it was close to doing and of course I missed that putt and the one after that. You see, the course caught me with my guard down; caught me losing focus. Caught me with my emotions getting the best of me! I was jello, only it felt great to wiggle all around.

Personally, that's what the National Golf Links of America does for me. the same with the Old Course of St. Andrews.


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