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TEPaul

Garland and John K. Moore:

When it comes to something like COR, the ball doesn't exactly "stick to" ;) the face but it does say on the face slightly longer with a higher face COR, for instance, (such as .86 vs .80 or is it .086 vs .080?). Of course we're talking here ONLY a milli-second longer but that slightly longer time span apparently imparts additional energy transfer which can produce additional distance. At least that's precisely what Frank Thomas told me. Frank may've been somewhat controversial in his 25 plus years as the Tech Director of the USGA but all that I've ever met who worked with him have said he was one helluva a scientist. Therefore I would tend to take his word on some of these technical explanations rather than people on here I don't know.

Garland and John K, are you scientists in this field? If you aren't or even if you are would you actually put your scientific tech knowledge on golf balls and golf clubs up against a guy like Frank Thomas (or today the present USGA Tech Director Dick Rugge)?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 01:48:34 PM by TEPaul »

John Moore II

...Yeah, a ping pong paddle will spin the little ball when you 'loft' the paddle. Why? DOWNWARD CONTACT. WOW  :o :o :o  The face is moving on a downward angle in relation to the path of the ball. ...

Think about it John. That is the analog of using a lofted club!

Since the club head is alway moving in pretty much the same direction, you add loft to it.  

Well, actually, if you make a proper swing, you decrease the loft of the club at impact. A 56 becomes a 52ish when the hands lead the head into impact. Now, if you swing in such a way that the clubhead leads the hands to impact, you make a terrible swing. Explain to me how the spin rate with the same grooves actually increases when you go from 64 to 60 ro 56 degrees? Because is does. With the same groove patern, the 56 spins more than a 64. Go to Golfsmith or Edwin Watts or even your Pro Shop, and ask to hit both a Callaway 64 (or Cleveland 64, since Cleveland and Callaway are the only major companies to make a 64 degree wedge) and a Callaway 56 (or, of course, Cleveland 56, if you hit the Cleveland 64) and I'll promise you that the 56 spins more, a lot more. Like I said, thats why with the original Pelze wedges, he switched groove types. The deep box grooves spin far too much on a sand wedge to be useful.

Since the ping pong paddle always has the same loft, you move it in a different direction.


John Moore II

Garland and John K. Moore:

When it comes to something like COR, the ball doesn't exactly "stick to" ;) the face but it does say on the face slightly longer with a higher face COR, for instance, (such as .86 vs .80 or is it .086 vs .080?). Of course we're talking here ONLY a milli-second longer but that slightly longer time span apparently imparts additional energy transfer which can produce additional distance. At least that's precisely what Frank Thomas told me. Frank may've been somewhat controversial in his 25 plus years as the Tech Director of the USGA but all that I've ever met who worked with him have said he was one helluva a scientist. Therefore I would tend to take his word on some of these technical explanations rather than people on here I don't know.

Garland and John K, are you scientists in this field? If you aren't or even if you are would you actually put your scientific tech knowledge on golf balls and golf clubs up against a guy like Frank Thomas (or today the present USGA Tech Director Dick Rugge)?

I would like to see Thomas' actual tests. The COR is essentially the energy transfered to the ball. If the COR is .83, then that means that 83% of the initial energy of the ball is transfered back to it (if the ball strikes the face at 100 mph, it rebounds at 83 mph) If the ball does stick on the driver, it would only be because the face would likely buckle inwards slightly more on a higher COR driver. But on the wedges, this would not be the case. They are all solid steel. I have seen other tests (I certainly wish I could find them online to post here) that show that the ball does not stick to the face. These were not conducted with new, high tech drivers. The ball 'jumps' off the face nearly as soon as it is struck, within a millisecond. Like I say, I'd love to see Thomas' tests, I will gladly say I'm wrong.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
John,

We're not talking proper swing here. We are talking science.

Control all things but loft, and the higher lofted club will impart more spin.
I.e., Use groveless club heads, put the club heads in a machine that will move them straight across a surface that has a ball sitting on it so that they strike the ball at exactly the same speed, with the hosel pointed at exactly the same angle.

Control all things but grooves. I.e., in this case you will have the same loft on all your club heads.

The differences in spin will be larger when you varied loft than when you varied grooves. For that matter at slow speeds it would be possible for the ball to not compress enough to even contact a groove.

These are not necessarily the experiments the USGA has conducted, but my description of the results is my understanding of what they reported as their results.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Garland and John K. Moore:

When it comes to something like COR, the ball doesn't exactly "stick to" ;) the face but it does say on the face slightly longer with a higher face COR, for instance, (such as .86 vs .80 or is it .086 vs .080?). Of course we're talking here ONLY a milli-second longer but that slightly longer time span apparently imparts additional energy transfer which can produce additional distance. At least that's precisely what Frank Thomas told me. Frank may've been somewhat controversial in his 25 plus years as the Tech Director of the USGA but all that I've ever met who worked with him have said he was one helluva a scientist. Therefore I would tend to take his word on some of these technical explanations rather than people on here I don't know.

Garland and John K, are you scientists in this field? If you aren't or even if you are would you actually put your scientific tech knowledge on golf balls and golf clubs up against a guy like Frank Thomas (or today the present USGA Tech Director Dick Rugge)?

tom,

we're talking wedges here.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

TEPaul

Right. Probably a good deal of USGA Tech Center science there too.

John Moore II

John,

We're not talking proper swing here. We are talking science.

Control all things but loft, and the higher lofted club will impart more spin.
I.e., Use groveless club heads, put the club heads in a machine that will move them straight across a surface that has a ball sitting on it so that they strike the ball at exactly the same speed, with the hosel pointed at exactly the same angle.

Control all things but grooves. I.e., in this case you will have the same loft on all your club heads.

The differences in spin will be larger when you varied loft than when you varied grooves. For that matter at slow speeds it would be possible for the ball to not compress enough to even contact a groove.

These are not necessarily the experiments the USGA has conducted, but my description of the results is my understanding of what they reported as their results.


Garland, how about we get out of a static, fixed environment and get into the real world. I'm telling you, go to Dicks, Golfsmith or any other place that has different lofts of wedges with the same grooves and I'll promise you that the 48 or 56 with the deep box grooves will put more spin on the ball than the 60 or 64. Go try it. You'll see that I'm correct.

And no matter how slow you swing, you will still get assistance from grooves. It is not possible to strike a golf ball with a proper swing and not contact grooves.

But I am dead serious. Go to the store, use a launch monitor, and hit a 56 and a 64 of the same brand and model. The 56 spins more.

I don't care what a vacuum test shows. If I did, I'd have to say that clubs from 1998 (I think) when they established the COR limitation aught to hit the same ball the same distance as a club from today. In practice, we all know thats bollocks. The COR hasn't changed. So, given the same COR, same shaft length, same head speed, the same ball aught to go the same distance. It doesn't. We've shown that over and over again.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 02:36:03 PM by John K. Moore »

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
So far, the best defense of the USGA seems to be along the lines of what Jim Kennedy very nicely articulated; that the hope seems to be that new groove rules will in turn force the elite players to demand higher-spin balls (balls that recreational players can easily and probably wisely avoid), and those higher-spin balls will in turn lead to a kind of self-imposed rollback among the elites.

It all looks pretty good on paper.

I am saddened, frankly, if this result is in any way dictated by a fear on the part of the USGA that they'd be sued by Acushnet or some other manufacturer.  I take a harder line on that prospect.  The USGA has lived for too long in the shadow of the Ping Eye 2 litigation, and I think it is high time that the organiziation reassert itself in equipment regulations.  Personally, I'd welcome a lawsuit pitting Acushnet against the USGA.  I'd love to see the USGA take on that case and win it.

I am just a little surprised that there has not been more litigation noise on the groove rules.  I don't suppose that if no one files a "groove" lawsuit, then, it may be unlikely that a wedge-loft lawsuit, arising out of a similar process, would be filed.

Clearly, the USGA (and the PGA Tour) learned a lot from the Ping lawsuit and won't make similar mistakes (vague rules, lax enforcement, ex post facto edicts) again.

I just hate the notion of "flanking" the ball issue.  It should be dealt with, head-on.

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
John K. Moore -- I think you're wrong; that all things being equal, more loft equals more spin.  But with regard to certain direct comparisons between clubs, "all things are not equal."

Anyway, I won't argue the point with you since I am neither an engineer nor a physicist.  The subject has been studied, and reported on.  I think the executive summary of this article is just what I have said; that all things being equal, more loft equals more spin.  But all things are not equal, and there are other factors.  I'm sorry that all I can offer you is the link and not a complete copy of the article, which is copyrighited.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/p48557q70761350v/

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
OK John,

Real world data from the USGA with tour players swinging. This is their result.

"Previous testing has show that the groove configuration and face treatment make little difference to dry rebound. Therefore, only the base U and V grove plates were tested in dry condition. The resulting spin as a function of plate angle is shown in Figure 8.1. It can be seen that the result from the two plates are indistinguishable."

Unforetunately I don't have the ability to replicate the graph in figure 8.1 here. However, it shows the ball spin going up constantly by face angle, but the data points for groove difference practically overlying each other. I.e., "the result from the two plates are indistinguishable."

The advantage for U shaped grooves as I said is the displacement of water and grass and such like.

This is from the Interim Report on Study of Spin Generation August 7, 2006 on the USGA website.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Moore II

I find it funny that while we talk about out of control technology, we see nothing wrong with the evolution from feathery to gutta percha to wound golf balls. Or from hickory shafts to steel to graphite.

Folks, there is so much technology involved in fitting golf clubs today it makes your head spin. Shaft weight, shaft material, shaft bend point, shaft flex, head weight, total club weight, head material, possible face insert material, grip weight, grip size, driver spin rates, golf ball spin rates, and I could go on. Changing the golf ball would make a difference, but not a huge one. People would just go to a lower loft, higher bend point shaft. Not to mention, Titleist and Callaway would still find a way to make the golf ball launch with different spin rates depending on the club, same as they do now.

How many courses were made obsolete when we switched from Hickory to steel? From solid wood heads to wood heads with face inserts? I don't see us wrangling about those changes, just about what has come recently. Seems to me to be a normal evolution of technology.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
...
I am just a little surprised that there has not been more litigation noise on the groove rules.  I don't suppose that if no one files a "groove" lawsuit, then, it may be unlikely that a wedge-loft lawsuit, arising out of a similar process, would be filed.
...

When it is a new technology and only one or a few have it, they will protect it. If it is an old technology and everyone has it, there is no need to protect it.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
I find it funny that while we talk about out of control technology, we see nothing wrong with the evolution from feathery to gutta percha to wound golf balls. Or from hickory shafts to steel to graphite.
...

I have no problem with improvements in durability and trueness (e.g. roundness in balls, flex consistency in shafts). However, if the improvement was done to defeat a golf rule, I have objections. The modern golf ball was developed to defeat the rule against putting vaseline on the driver. The modern golf ball has no legitimacy IMHO.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Moore II

OK John,

Real world data from the USGA with tour players swinging. This is their result.

"Previous testing has show that the groove configuration and face treatment make little difference to dry rebound. Therefore, only the base U and V grove plates were tested in dry condition. The resulting spin as a function of plate angle is shown in Figure 8.1. It can be seen that the result from the two plates are indistinguishable."

Unforetunately I don't have the ability to replicate the graph in figure 8.1 here. However, it shows the ball spin going up constantly by face angle, but the data points for groove difference practically overlying each other. I.e., "the result from the two plates are indistinguishable."

The advantage for U shaped grooves as I said is the displacement of water and grass and such like.

This is from the Interim Report on Study of Spin Generation August 7, 2006 on the USGA website.


I'd like to see them test the new deep box grooves like you see on the Cleveland CG-14 with 'Zip' grooves and the Callaway X Forged with MD Grooves. They are correct, the grooves are pointless. The spin does not come from grooves, but from downward contact, the grooves just work to move dirt, water etc. away from the ball. But I tell you, go try it out. The 56 imparts more spin with box grooves than does the 64.

As far as the test goes, I looked it up. OK, so in a vacuum, the U and V grooves work the same, I could have told you that yesterday when we started this. But scroll down to section 8.2 where there is actually something on the face. It says that with any type of external 'stuff' in play, the U grooves spin more. AND!! if I am reading the charts right, the two charts labeled 8.3 show that the ball, with external factors in play, spins progressively less off clubs with lofts greater than about 35 degrees in the Dupont test and progressively less off all clubs in the newsprint test. So, like I said, if I can read the charts (pretty sure I can) the charts marked 8.3 prove me right, outside of a vacuum environment, or on a golf course, where real golf takes place.

John Moore II

I find it funny that while we talk about out of control technology, we see nothing wrong with the evolution from feathery to gutta percha to wound golf balls. Or from hickory shafts to steel to graphite.
...

I have no problem with improvements in durability and trueness (e.g. roundness in balls, flex consistency in shafts). However, if the improvement was done to defeat a golf rule, I have objections. The modern golf ball was developed to defeat the rule against putting vaseline on the driver. The modern golf ball has no legitimacy IMHO.


Garland, I ask you again to show me where it has ever been written and proven that this is the case. Golf balls designed to combat not being able to put vasaline on the face? I call BS.

john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
In the PING dispute,  was PING the only manufacturer who sued ?
I didn't think their  'groove'  was patented.

Did the other club manufacturers back down ?
Or,  did the others not use similar grooves to PING and so were not affected by the change ?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
I find it funny that while we talk about out of control technology, we see nothing wrong with the evolution from feathery to gutta percha to wound golf balls. Or from hickory shafts to steel to graphite.
...

I have no problem with improvements in durability and trueness (e.g. roundness in balls, flex consistency in shafts). However, if the improvement was done to defeat a golf rule, I have objections. The modern golf ball was developed to defeat the rule against putting vaseline on the driver. The modern golf ball has no legitimacy IMHO.


Garland, I ask you again to show me where it has ever been written and proven that this is the case. Golf balls designed to combat not being able to put vasaline on the face? I call BS.

Perhaps I wrote that a little too quickly (I tend t skip all the detail). The modern golf ball was developed in a fashion so that it would have an effect consistent with putting vaseline on the driver.

In all likely hood they probably never even thought about the rule. What they probably thought about was developing a ball to replicate the rock flites in distance off the driver. Or, since they were manufacturing rock flites, they were developing an improved rock flite the would replicate the balata with the scoring clubs.

The net effect was that they circumvented the rule against putting vaseline on the driver face when using a balata, or of putting a sticky substance on the scoring club faces when using a rock flite.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
I find it funny that while we talk about out of control technology, we see nothing wrong with the evolution from feathery to gutta percha to wound golf balls. Or from hickory shafts to steel to graphite.

Folks, there is so much technology involved in fitting golf clubs today it makes your head spin. Shaft weight, shaft material, shaft bend point, shaft flex, head weight, total club weight, head material, possible face insert material, grip weight, grip size, driver spin rates, golf ball spin rates, and I could go on. Changing the golf ball would make a difference, but not a huge one. People would just go to a lower loft, higher bend point shaft. Not to mention, Titleist and Callaway would still find a way to make the golf ball launch with different spin rates depending on the club, same as they do now.

How many courses were made obsolete when we switched from Hickory to steel? From solid wood heads to wood heads with face inserts? I don't see us wrangling about those changes, just about what has come recently. Seems to me to be a normal evolution of technology.
Ahhh, John.  Good points all!  Deserving of an equally good reply, meeting your points.

I don't oppose all technology.  I like technology that tends to make the game better, more affordable, more accessible, more [small-d] democratic, and, quite possibly, "fairer."

These are all value judgments, to be sure.  But let's do some specifics.
============
The featherie, gutty, and other early balls:  Good riddance to them.  They were uneven in quality and so terribly expensive that they drove people away form the game.

Hickory shafts:  Beautiful, and they encouraged a certain kind of beautiful, flowing swing.  (See, e.g., Hagen.)  But hickory was expensive, hard to work with, ureliable and less long-wearing.

Steel shafts:  A wonderful invention that substantially reduced the cost of a set of clubs.  Easy to work with, esay for clubbuilders to design around.

Persimmon:  A beautiful wood.  Nice to look at.  Badly susceptible to moisture, swelling, breakage, requiring semi-regular refininshing.  Notoriously inconsistent, such that the great players hunted for years to find a good persimmon driver and then played with it 'til it broke.

Metal heads (the Taylor Made 'Pittsburgh Persimmon' and 'Burner.':  A fabuolous invention for the common man.  Now, heads could be made in one's basement without pinning, whipping, etc.  Just a shaft, a head and some epoxy.  Consistent quality, bulletproof resistance to weather and breakage.  Cheaper than persimmon.

Composite shafts:  Eh.  Another new expense, ennabling lighter, longer drivers.  Perhaps they helped some people with joint disabilities, arthritis, etc.  Not a disaster, but not much of a gain for the sport based on my cireteria.  It didn't take long for the era of $1000 shafts to arrive.

Titanium alloy heads:  Highly debatable.  More expensive, for sure, than steel.  Significantly so.  And harder to work on (marginally, in that it is hard to drill or bend titanium).  We would not have the era of 300+cc driver heads without Ti.  Do they help recreational players more?  Or the elite players?  I don't know.  I'm not thilled, either way.

Surlyn-cover golf balls:  A wonderful invention.  Balls that spun less, were less prone to cutting, and were cheaper to produce.  A win-win-win, but a development that needed to be approached and controlled very carefully, in terms of overall distance standards.

Urethane-cover multilayer golf balls:  Too much of a good thing.  More expensive.  Longer -- a lot longer -- for the best players, while recreational players saw no real advantage over their previous Surlyn balls.
============
So there, John.  Some technology good, some bad.  And yes, they are all value judgments.  I don't oppose all technology; I welcome a good bit of technology.  (Remember Bob Jones' advocacy that the most important technological advancement in golf in his lifetime was nothing that was in his golf bag; it was the invention of the modern greens mower.)

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
In the PING dispute,  was PING the only manufacturer who sued ?
I didn't think their  'groove'  was patented.

Did the other club manufacturers back down ?
Or,  did the others not use similar grooves to PING and so were not affected by the change ?
Ping was the only manufacturer affected by the ruling and yes they were the only one that sued.  The lawsuits (one versus the USGA, a separate cause of action versus the predecessor to the PGA Tour) were about the Ping Eye 2 specifically.  And it was not simply about "square grooves" or "deep grooves" or anything else like that.  It was a very, very technical application of an arcane rule relating to the space bewteen the "shoulder" portion of the Ping grooves.  Basically an overly aggressive groove pattern.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Chuck,
In previous threads both Pat Mucci and Tom Paul have brought up the side benefits of higher spinning balls as they relate to distance. I don't think head butting with manufacturers is a practical approach for the USGA, nor do I think rolling back the ball will get much love from the everyday player, so I don't see them going that way.   I honestly feel that they have already been talking with the manufacturers and that we are now seeing the results. I think they've agreed upon plan a of action that has several parts, and these parts will be unfolding over the next few years.

It's to everyone's benefit, and everybody knows it. There is no downside.    

 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

John Moore II

Chuck--my main thing was not so much the technology, but the discussion that happens on here so often about courses becoming obsolete. And I don't think urethane has made balls that much more expensive. I don't recall the current Pro V1 being that much more than a Tour Balata, given regular inflation. And I am not certain the cover makes that much a difference. How much difference in distance was there between the Tour Balata and the Profesisonal? I don't remember that much difference. I understand you don't oppose technology, but many on here do. I am just trying to make the case that 'obsolete' courses aren't a direct function of todays technology, but that it has always happened.

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Chuck,
In previous threads both Pat Mucci and Tom Paul have brought up the side benefits of higher spinning balls as they relate to distance. I don't think head butting with manufacturers is a practical approach for the USGA, nor do I think rolling back the ball will get much love from the everyday player, so I don't see them going that way.   I honestly feel that they have already been talking with the manufacturers and that we are now seeing the results. I think they've agreed upon plan a of action that has several parts, and these parts will be unfolding over the next few years.

It's to everyone's benefit, and everybody knows it. There is no downside.    

 
Jim if I were an average player (hell, I am an average player) and somebody said, "Your new golf balls will go 5 yards shorter," and walked away, I'd feel pretty deflated.

If, on the other hand, somebody said, "We are imposing new standards in all of golf.  New golf balls will go 5 yards shorter, for you, Chuck.  For Vijay, Ernie, and Tiger, they will go 20 yards shorter.  For JB Holmes, probably 25 yards shorter.  You all will play a more similar game as a result."  I'd think that would be pretty good.

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Chuck--my main thing was not so much the technology, but the discussion that happens on here so often about courses becoming obsolete. And I don't think urethane has made balls that much more expensive. I don't recall the current Pro V1 being that much more than a Tour Balata, given regular inflation. And I am not certain the cover makes that much a difference.
Your point is well-taken, John.  You are quite right to make it.  But here'e the number I come back at you with:  Something like 60 or 70 percent of recreational players don't even bother to buy premium urethane balls.  They go to Wal-mart and buy bargain Surlyn or other elasotmer balls.  In that sense, whatever benefits there are to the Pro-V (and I might debate a good many of the alleged benefits), they are benefits that most of golf never appreciates, or  can't appreciate, and which is irrelevant to recreational golf.

How much difference in distance was there between the Tour Balata and the Profesisonal? I don't remember that much difference.
I think you are right!  I think the distance explosion that came with the Pro V was unusual, unprecedented, and entirely ball-related.  Unlike any other ball development in the 30 years before, or the 10 years since.

I understand you don't oppose technology, but many on here do. I am just trying to make the case that 'obsolete' courses aren't a direct function of todays technology, but that it has always happened.
The difference being that in the cases of so many golf courses, we have gotten to the point of not merely adjusting the golf courses but to the point of physical impossibility.  There is no more room to move things around at Merion, or Riviera, or Oakland Hills or The Old Course.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 03:48:57 PM by Chuck Brown »

John Moore II

I think what allowed for the Pro V1 was the core. They finally figured out a way to get balata type spin and feel with a solid core. That made the golf ball go much farther. But I don't think the cover makes that much of a difference. The core and the multi cover stuff is what makes the biggest difference.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Chuck--my main thing was not so much the technology, but the discussion that happens on here so often about courses becoming obsolete. And I don't think urethane has made balls that much more expensive. I don't recall the current Pro V1 being that much more than a Tour Balata, given regular inflation.

I agree. The cost of the ball is marketing, not manufacturing. Titleist says it is their best ball and sets the price accordingly. I believe TopFlite is selling the same technology in The Gamer for less than half of what the ProV goes for.

And I am not certain the cover makes that much a difference. How much difference in distance was there between the Tour Balata and the Profesisonal? I don't remember that much difference. I understand you don't oppose technology, but many on here do. I am just trying to make the case that 'obsolete' courses aren't a direct function of todays technology, but that it has always happened.

Agree. It has always happened. It is just that the justification for the newer technology is not there like it was for hickory to steel, and feathery to gutta. The justifications get flimsier and flimsier and for some of us they have crossed the line in validity with respect to course design. For others, they haven't. For others, they never will.


"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne