"Nobody can route a golf course better than Bill Coore"

[JC Jones]

So says Ben Crenshaw in the video on the Colorado Golf Club website.

Give our desire to talk about who/which is better, I pose the question:

Do you agree?

[Matt MacIver]

From my spot on the armchair...routing is the hardest thing for me to have a view on.  Sure the walk is nice and the views are pretty, greens are close to tees, the par 3s move in different directions, etc etc....but unless I walk the woods and valleys where they DIDN'T put the course, how would I really know? 

Since I'm a slow learner it would probably take me 5 rounds to fully appreciate 18 individual holes, playing lines, angles, etc.  It would probably take me 3x as long, if even, to understand one routing from another potential.

[Jim Nugent]

Does this kind of suggest Bill does most of the routing for the C&C courses?

Does anyone know how Coore's course at Barnbougle is coming along? 

[Michael Dugger]

No doubt he's good.  One of the best for sure.  But let's not overanalyze Ben's statement.  Of course, he's biased, and of course he's going to more highly tout his partner than the competition.

[JC Jones]

No doubt he's good.  One of the best for sure.  But let's not overanalyze Ben's statement.  Of course, he's biased, and of course he's going to more highly tout his partner than the competition.

The purpose certainly wasnt to over-analyze Crenshaw vis a vis his statement and obviously he's bias. 

The point was to have a discussion about who, among present or past architects, in your opinion, did the best routing. 

[Michael Dugger]

No doubt he's good.  One of the best for sure.  But let's not overanalyze Ben's statement.  Of course, he's biased, and of course he's going to more highly tout his partner than the competition.

The purpose certainly wasnt to over-analyze Crenshaw vis a vis his statement and obviously he's bias. 

The point was to have a discussion about who, among present or past architects, in your opinion, did the best routing. 

Not attacking my friend......

Surely Tom Doak has to be a part of this discussion.  I think it would be fair to say that any of your "minimalist" style architects probably pay more attention to routing.

This makes sense because the philosophy of these types of architects is to take an already beautiful piece of property and lay the course down upon it as gracefully as possible.

It's somewhat difficult to break this down, though, because every job is so different.  I think it will come down to personal preference.  Some pieces of property were never beautiful; they never possessed any stunning natural features.  In those cases a successful routing will possess different characteristics than to analyze the routing of a course on an epic piece of dunesland.

I think a Shadow Creek, for example, Chamber's Bay or Whistling Straits are good test subjects for this discussion.  Shadow Creek could have been routed any old way and in some senses it wouldn't impact the final product at all.

Tom Doak once said he'd of liked to see a par 3 playing towards the water, instead of along side it, at Whistling Straits.  Is this a big deal?  Did Dye did a poor job of routing the course?  I think it boils down to personal preference.

Chambers Bay?  I personally think the decision to run the 8th hole up on the other side of the driving range to be a bad idea.  Surely I would have done this differently, but it's still a pretty unobstrusive routing.  Both 9s return to the clubhouse, the final stretch is along the water.  I might just be nitpicking.....



 

 

[JC Jones]

Michael

I agree that a "minimalist" will have to have better routing to produce a good golf course based solely on the philosophy.

The question may very well turn to , what constitutes good routing and how is the average golfer to know how the holes could have been arranged differently to produce a different and perhaps, superior, routing.  Is it just green to tee distances?

[Michael Dugger]

Michael

I agree that a "minimalist" will have to have better routing to produce a good golf course based solely on the philosophy.

The question may very well turn to , what constitutes good routing and how is the average golfer to know how the holes could have been arranged differently to produce a different and perhaps, superior, routing.  Is it just green to tee distances?

In one regard, there are general rules, as outlined by Mackenzie, for example, which summarize a "good" routing. 

1. two loops of 9, although that's not always preferred
2. no bottlenecks where play slows down
3. capturing stunning backdrops
4. not playing into the setting sun
5. greens in places where they get enough sun and ventilation
6. no long walks between tee and green

Just to name a few.

What's more interesting to me is flow, does the routing give the golf course a "soul"

[Jeff_Mingay]

The brilliance of every fine golf course stems from a good routing.

What is a "good routing"? This is a tough question to answer.

Routing is an art unto itself. It's a very subjective talent, too. In other words, it's unlikely that two equally accomplished golf architects would arrive at the same scheme over the same property. And, this is not to say either designer is incorrect.

Really bad and really good routings are usually pretty obvious to most golfers. Evaluating "good routings" -- ie the course in question simply works well, feels right, has an enjoyable ebb and flow, and features a variety of interesting (and memorable) holes -- is very subjective.

Over the years, I've been consistently amazed at how proficient Donald Ross was a routing golf courses... quickly in many cases too.

[Dieter Jones]

Does this kind of suggest Bill does most of the routing for the C&C courses?

Does anyone know how Coore's course at Barnbougle is coming along? 

Jim, I was at Barnbougle last weekend. They have 4 holes shaped and are working on the rest now. Plan is for official opening Spring 2010 with limited play about this time next year or early 2010.

I was playing on Monday morning and saw Bill Coore, Mike Kaiser et al walking the routing just across the river from the 17th tee on Barnbougle.

[Jim Nugent]

Does this kind of suggest Bill does most of the routing for the C&C courses?

Does anyone know how Coore's course at Barnbougle is coming along? 

Jim, I was at Barnbougle last weekend. They have 4 holes shaped and are working on the rest now. Plan is for official opening Spring 2010 with limited play about this time next year or early 2010.

I was playing on Monday morning and saw Bill Coore, Mike Kaiser et al walking the routing just across the river from the 17th tee on Barnbougle.

Thanks for the update.  I would really like to see more information on this course, including pictures if possible, as it developes.  Real curious to see how it turns out compared to Tom's course. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

"I think it would be fair to say that any of your "minimalist" style architects probably pay more attention to routing"


I don't think that is a fair statement at all.  It might be fair to say they pay attention to slightly different things, like some micro ground contour that others might ignore in favor of some other routing attribute.  As it usually happens, you give something to get something so the routing probably wouldn't be better at all.

I agree with the statement that its hard to compare because you will rarely know what could have been.  If you enjoy all 18 holes and there are no clunkers then it was probably a pretty solid routing.

[TEPaul]

I have no idea if nobody can route a golf course better than Bill Coore but I sure do admire the way he goes about it. And the way he goes about it may be real unique in this day and age. Basically he just walks and walks and walks. I've seen him in action on at least three sites. It could take him a week, three weeks, three months---whatever, he just keeps on walking until he's satisfied he has something good.

Sometimes it may even get sort of hairy like one time while he was walking and walking and walking searching for what he calls "golf' at Hidden Creek. He found some new ground that appealed to him and he called owner Roger Hansen on his cell phone:

Coore:
"Roger, I found some really good ground for golf."

Hansen:
"Where are you Bill?"

Coore:
"I'm not too sure Roger." (And then Bill desribed to Roger where he was enough that Roger could identify the area on the phone).

Hansen:
"Bill, you're on the Goddamned New Jersey State Police shooting range---get the hell outta there before you get shot."

[Scott Macpherson]

Harry Colt was renown for his routings. Murifield is perhaps the finest routing in the world.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I found out last night from a consultant that while not famous for walking routings, I have gained some industry notoriety for riding them hard in rental cars.....I am the captain kirk of driving rental cars on virgin property I hear, in that I go "where no man has gone before......"

No wonder Avis doesn't rent to me any more!

[TEPaul]

My Dearest Mr. Jeffrey Brauer, Sir:

How are you today? Is everything fit and fiddle with you?

As to your message instant, do you also play golf in a rental car? 

Speaking of driving around on sites; I've got this Range Rover which the company claims are virtually impossible to get stuck no matter what or where. Well, I drove it onto that Davis Love/Paul Cowley site in Maryland about a year ago in the loaming with noone around for miles and got it stuck in mud up to the floorboards. That did not put me in a good mood as I was out in the middle of nowhere in the dark with noone around (this was before I realized that really attractive private jet airline stewardess lived only about two miles away) and I was contemplating having to spend the night in the car but I read the manual and basically figured out its "Davis Love/Paul Cowley Maryland golf site optional mode" for getting it unstuck. The only problem was I opened the driver's door to watch the rear wheels as I tried to reverse it outta there. It worked like a charm until I noticed that the left rear wheel moved about 3,000 cubic feet of wet Maryland mud right up against the inside of my driver's door!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mr. Paul,

Thanks for the note.  I am not sure if I am fit and fiddle or not! Hope all is well with you.  As to your reply of a few moments ago, I have taken a rental car on a finished golf course, but not an open one. My former employer once drove his rental over a newly seeded putting green, to the chagrin of all.  I have slid off wet cart path in a mini van, small kids in tow on a newly seeded and heavily irrigated course.

I am not sure playing golf in a cart is faster than walking, but I do know that getting around a site covers a lot more ground if you drive to areas and then get out and walk.  When walking, burrs or rocks often get in my shoes, and you end up looking down for those, or rose bushes, or snakes far too much to look at potential golf holes.

The most unusual site visit was in a helicopter.  We would land on a tee, talk about it, and if trees blocked the view, just tell the pilot to hover up above tree level so we could have a look!