How do you prefer to tip?

[Mike Sweeney]

I have learned a few things from this thread. Thanks

So much of this stuff is situational. I worked as a cart kid one summer at Avalon Golf Club. It just was not part of the karma of the place to clean clubs. You simply cleaned the carts.

Worked for six summers as a mate on a private fishing boat. I was actually a corporate employee of the owner's company so it was not appropriate to take a tip. When guys catch a 300 pound tuna for the first and only time of their life, they want to tip but it was not the protocol of the boat. The mates on public charter boats and head boats did well by tipping, especially when the boat caught a bunch of fish.

We once were in a fishing tournament and the protocol was for the mate to get 10% of the winnings. We hooked up with a Blue Marlin that was probably 500+ pounds  that we lost at the boat after three hours. The calcutta was over $100,000 and would have been $10,000 in 1982 to a college kid. That one still hurts!

PS. Pounds in fish stories are like handicaps, they are never accurate. 

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

You had me rolling in laughter ... "It's not like four guys with "dirty towels", with tattoos and earrings ravenously waiting for fresh meat."

Agreed.

People who bitch and moan about having to dive into their pockets usually don't have much experience in the service / hospitality area. Ignorance, for manh of them, is ineed bliss.

Jeff, you are so right -- many of the people who do provide such detailed customer service do it because they want to be helpful and do care. No doubt the "service" component is more about certain club cultures and really should not apply to those at a different level among those playing the game (e.g. muni's, low level private clubs, etc, etc).

One other thing to mention -- no tipping is a nice statement but frankly those members / guests who feel so inclined will do so because they want to "thank" additionally those who made their day that special. Club rules will not stop such action and frankly the no tipping rule is simply put into place to diplomatically handle the cheap skates who don't fork over a fair and appropriate amount when serviced.

You are 100000% correct -- if people don't want the service just do the right and polite thing -- say NO in a courteous fashion.

Simple as that -- by the way -- great mention on the Hope story !

[Tom Huckaby]

I think I said recently that I learn a lot about golf and life in this forum, far beyond any architectural learning.  This thread has been great evidence of that.

But some advice - take it for what it's worth - but one large thing I have learned in here is that when a wise man like Bob Huntley says a thread has gone on too long, it has.  No further participation is likely to do any good.

But of course I posted after he said that, so do as I say, not as I do.   

[Anthony Gray]

  Club and countries are so different when it comes to tipping that it is always confuseing for a traveling golfer to know what is proper. I wish there was a standard.

  Anthony

[Lou_Duran]

I tip generously for sevices I want, ask for, and are provided at a level beyond average or mediocre.  When visiting a private club as a guest, I make an effort to identity the relevant policies beforehand and tip near the high end of the acceptable range without as much regard to performance.

For things I have no use for like having my clubs wiped off after a round or being picked up in the parking lot after avoiding the bag drop area, I tend to decline the service politely.  However, if I see that it's a young kid who's trying to make a few bucks, I'll let him do his work and tip him accordingly.

I agree with Mr. Huntley.  It would be great if wages and expectations were such that tipping is not an issue.  As to paying cash so the waiter or attendant gets it all, I don't necessarily think it is a good thing that we are aiding the person to subvert policies which seek to "spread the wealth" with other employees who don't get face time but are nevertheless critical to the service provided, and to avoid paying income and employment taxes.  I tend to tip in cash for golf services as it is typically easier.

[Jeff Fortson]

  Club and countries are so different when it comes to tipping that it is always confuseing for a traveling golfer to know what is proper. I wish there was a standard.

  Anthony

The standard should be "When in Rome..."  One of my favorite things to hear about is the "ugly American" and how rude they can be when traveling outside their country.  I hear this a lot from Euros.  Americans think that everyone should speak English to them and there should be a McDonald's on every corner. 

Well, I have dealt with plenty of people from other countries that under-tip while in the U.S.  Maybe they don't understand the customs here, or maybe they disagree with the customs.  I just find it hypocritical on a national level to give Americans a hard time for being rude to foreign cultures when traveling and yet those some countries send visitors that don't tip or heavily under-tip people like waiters or caddies while they visit the U.S.

Please don't take this the wrong way.  I AM NOT ACCUSING ANYONE IN THIS FORUM FROM EUROPE OR ANYWHERE ELSE OF THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR.  Please don't get offended.  It's just a simple observation.


Jeff F.

[Chris Kane]

frankly the no tipping rule is simply put into place to diplomatically handle the cheap skates who don't fork over a fair and appropriate amount when serviced.

That is just not right.  The no-tipping rule tends to be in place to prevent situations where some members get preferential service (or other members get poor service) based on their patterns of tipping.

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

C'mon -- let's be a bit more forthcoming shall we.

Places that insert the "no tip rule" don't want to have a few generous and respectful members show up the others who have a hard time finding the entrance way to their wallets. These same cheapskates then have the temerity to label unhelpful staff as being inattentive to their needs. Blah, blah, blah --

I always hear the "crying"  anguish of those who say that having a no tip rule is meant to level the playing field. Frankly, it's meant to level the field down.

Chris, c'mon again let's be straightforward and nuff of this silly tap dance rationale -- you have plenty of cheap people who hide behind all the defenses and excuses they can muster. Let's stop the denial game -- shall we? The "no tip rule" is simply inserted to provide diplomatic cover for such out of touch folks -- the equality rationale is simply nothing more than a convenient defense gimmick and is easily seen as such.

One other thing -- even in places with no tip rules you still have at times members who understand that rewarding those who do an outstanding job -- not just basic services I might add -- is worth compensating.

[Lester George]

"I don't believe in tipping....I believe in over-tipping"

Todd Wilkinson

[Kyle Harris]

Chris:

C'mon -- let's be a bit more forthcoming shall we.

Places that insert the "no tip rule" don't want to have a few generous and respectful members show up the others who have a hard time finding the entrance way to their wallets. These same cheapskates then have the temerity to label unhelpful staff as being inattentive to their needs. Blah, blah, blah --

I always hear the "crying"  anguish of those who say that having a no tip rule is meant to level the playing field. Frankly, it's meant to level the field down.

Chris, c'mon again let's be straightforward and nuff of this silly tap dance rationale -- you have plenty of cheap people who hide behind all the defenses and excuses they can muster. Let's stop the denial game -- shall we? The "no tip rule" is simply inserted to provide diplomatic cover for such out of touch folks -- the equality rationale is simply nothing more than a convenient defense gimmick and is easily seen as such.

One other thing -- even in places with no tip rules you still have at times members who understand that rewarding those who do an outstanding job -- not just basic services I might add -- is worth compensating.

Anyone who is really into the service industry will tell you that a repeat customer is the only true reward.

Or do you prefer the "get as much as out them while they're here" method?

[Lou_Duran]

As a real estate broker the best tip I ever got was when a client came back to do subsequent deals with me.  As a corporate financial planner the best tips came from colleagues and senior management when they asked for my counsel.  Both reflected the worth of my work and that provided security and incentive to do even better.  While a large segment of the population believes otherwise, compensation generally reflects the contribution of one's work in economic terms to the enterprise.

In a relatively free society, one is not restrained from seeking opportunities with greater renumeration.  Most people are not forced to clean clubs, fold shirts, or wait tables.  But even in these relatively poor paying jobs where tipping is an important part of the total compensation, I suspect that performance has quite a bit to do with rewards.

I was fortunate to work partime as a bartender during college with a private caterer which discouraged tipping (tip jars were not allowed typically, and a service fee was added to the bill which we never saw).   I augmented the "fair" wage I voluntarily agreed to work for by treating guests as well as I could which sometimes resulted in the host slipping me a $20 or two at the end of the night.  Never did it occur to me to belittle Matt's "cheap people", which though they do exist, are generally more than offset by those who appreciate the extra effort.  Oh, and I never lacked liquor, though usually not from the top shelves.     

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle  H:

Your last answer demonstrates you are clueless on what's been said.

Nuff said ...

[Jeff Fortson]

This is a truly fascinating non-GCA related topic.  I have really been thinking about this since I have a pinky-toe wedged into this side of the business.  It's interesting.  I see some good points on both sides.  While I do feel that many people that are against tipping probably never worked for them and most good tippers are people that have experienced what working for tips is like, I think the overall picture I'm getting here is that many "avid"/"good" golfers don't want help from people like outside services, valet, etc. 

If I use the Coachella Valley for this analysis the answer is clear...  capable adults are needed to run outside services at a resort-based clientele golf course.  There aren't enough college-aged students available to run a good bagroom/cartbarn operation.  I would say half the guys working outside services at places here in the desert (i.e. PGA West, La Quinta Resort, etc.) are looking to either stay afloat while playing mini-tours or get their foot in the door to become a club pro.  While many clubs in suburbia and greater metro areas have plenty of college aged kids looking for their party money and money to buy books for the semester, that simply isn't the case here.

There is no other way to staff a facility here in the desert of CA, especially ones with more than 18 holes.  You would come to the course and there would be no carts staged, no range prepped, no one to park your car, and no one to service you on the course with food and beverage and no one to help you with any immediate need you may have while on property.  Believe it or not an outside service job is quite strenuous physically and requires a lot of running and lifting.  There are few retirees capable of the work load physically so all the retirees end up marshaling or starting so you can't use them.  So unfortunately, it's part of the package if you want to play out here.  Most customers are on vacation and want the extra pampering and I would guess half of the customers play sparingly at home. 

If the golfing public decided conclusively to stop tipping outside service staffs here in the desert with no raise in their hourly pay you would have ghost towns for golf courses.  Half the guys I work with would quit immediately and start valet parking, bartending or waiting tables.  The other half would probably quit shortly thereafter and dig ditches.  I totally agree with the assessment that you don't need much of a brain to do the job of an outside service staff member, but you do need a good personality and customer service skills to make money. 

I find it hilarious that many of the anti-tippers or no-tip policy guys in here seemed to be the same guys that are uber-capitalists.  What's wrong with guys trying to make a living and trying to give exceptional service to receive a tip for it.  Isn't that the mantra of capitalism?  The better the product, the better the service and the more you hustle, the more you should make?  Why should a kid who never smiles and ignores you get tipped the same as a kid that always greets you warmly and does everything he can to help you?  That's what a no-tip policy does.  Why all of a sudden are many of you promoting a utopian policy that lets every member get the "same" treatment?  Why shouldn't a guy be able to show appreciation and pay for extra service?  If you want the same service the guy that tips a lot gets then start tipping more and you'll get it too!

I don't know, I think the apathy shown on this thread for guys trying to either get their start in the golf business or guys trying to come up with enough money for their next mini-tour event entry fee is appalling.  Like I said in one of my previous posts, most of the guys that come over to help you HAVE to come over and help you.  If their pro sees them neglect you, he'll write them up or fire them.  It's part of their job description.  Get over your fears of the ever-greedy outside service staffer and either tip them or politely decline their service and go about your day.  Vilifying them is well below most of your characters.  If you want to change the culture of tipping talk to the head pro at the course you play at and express your feelings.  It's the pros that are implementing this service. 

Don't kill the messenger.


Jeff F.

[Grant Saunders]

You would come to the course and there would be no carts staged, no range prepped, no one to park your car, and no one to service you on the course with food and beverage and no one to help you with any immediate need you may have while on property. 
Jeff F.

Why is this a bad thing?

[Jeff Fortson]

You would come to the course and there would be no carts staged, no range prepped, no one to park your car, and no one to service you on the course with food and beverage and no one to help you with any immediate need you may have while on property. 
Jeff F.

Why is this a bad thing?

I'm not saying it is.  But for the vast majority of our patrons it is a big deal.  Like I said, for the group in here which are usually very avid, good players that stuff is a bother but for most of the vacation type golfers it is important.


Jeff F.

[Chris Kane]

Jeff, isn't it a form of emotional blackmail to provide a service without asking with the expectation of a tip?

[Jeff Fortson]

Jeff, isn't it a form of emotional blackmail to provide a service without asking with the expectation of a tip?

Absolutely not.  If the service provided is standard, legal practice in the business then how is it "blackmail"?  So, are you suggesting that any service needs to be ok'd by the customer before giving it?  If so, should a waiter ask if he/she can bring you your food just in case you want to go get it?  Should a valet parker ask if he can park your car even if you pulled into the valet area and hand him the keys?  Should a bartender pour your drink after you requested one and then ask if you want it served? 

The point you guys are missing is that the vast majority of these kids/adults working outside services are REQUIRED by their employers to service you and your clubs without your request.  If you have a problem with it, then take it up with the pro/manager of the club.  Don't vilify the guy just doing his job.  You guys seem to think that these guys are doing something they are not supposed to be doing.  Remember, you aren't their employer and their employer EXPECTS it of them.  A guest services employee will back off your clubs if you simply ask him to.  It's that simple.

Whether it's right or wrong to approach a guest and service their equipment without request is not really a debate where I work.  The majority of golfers at the place I work welcome and want the service and therefore it is applied.  If someone doesn't want the service and asks to not be helped they are left alone.  Just because some of you find it "unnecessary", "extortion", or some sort of "blackmail" doesn't mean the service shouldn't be applied when the majority of customers at places like the one I work at expect it and want it.


Jeff F.

[John_Cullum]

I find it hilarious that many of the anti-tippers or no-tip policy guys in here seemed to be the same guys that are uber-capitalists.  What's wrong with guys trying to make a living and trying to give exceptional service to receive a tip for it.  Isn't that the mantra of capitalism?  The better the product, the better the service and the more you hustle, the more you should make?  Why should a kid who never smiles and ignores you get tipped the same as a kid that always greets you warmly and does everything he can to help you?  That's what a no-tip policy does.  Why all of a sudden are many of you promoting a utopian policy that lets every member get the "same" treatment?  Why shouldn't a guy be able to show appreciation and pay for extra service?  If you want the same service the guy that tips a lot gets then start tipping more and you'll get it too!

That is a very fair point. I believe the problem people have with it is most don't feel comfortable looking a kid in the eye and saying "no thanks." It's like kicking puppies out of the way.

All things being equal. I prefer your way. I can easily look at somebody and say no, and they'll just move on to the next sucker

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

Well said.

Gents:

For you tight wads out there - why all the silly rubbish w endless excuses meant to justify you being cheap. I don't doubt a good number of you feel sincerely that your clubs are YOUR clubs and that you would rather not have them touched.

Just follow what Jeff said -- politely turn down the action with a direct reply. Not the avoidance game that invariably ensues.

Those clubs that institute a no tip policy simply level the field of service downward -- why do more when the net result is the same? And, before all the dogs of cheapness bark again try to realize that tips motivate people to provide more and more customer service.

What this thread has demonstrated is that instead of a clear number of people coming to terms with their cheapness -- you have a litany of dodge ball reasons and other putdowns (e.g. blackmail , extortion, etc, etc,) that are lobbed time after time.

It's also a big time putdown when people throw forward an insulting link that such people at clubs are the equivalent of the NYC squeegee guys. Truly remarkable how cheap people can turn things around to deflect from their own tight wadness.

[Chris Kane]

Matt, are you finished making unflattering character assessments of people you've never met?  Let me know when you have, so I can respond.

[Mark_F]

And, before all the dogs of cheapness bark again try to realize that tips motivate people to provide more and more customer service.

I would have thought that providing a decent wage in the first place would accomplish that.

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

I don't have to meet people -- nor do I care to -- who verbally assault the broad reaches of those within the service industry with comments -- you did say such tipping is nothing less than "emotional blackmail."

You take offense to my comments -- but you and others feel free to brod brush those who are attempting to provide a service that many want to have.

I simply agreed w Jeff's cogent description of what the remedies are. Frankly, you have spineless jellyfish who could smply decline such "service" and then walk away head up high from such grubby people who are made to be the equivalent of NYC squeegee men.

Chris, there are people who are cheap. How bout we admit as much? It would be far more candid and yes, even more human, to admit it -- rather than hide behind all the mumbo jumbo word games that have been brought forward to justify such juvenile behavior.

If people want to keep a healthy distance from having anything of their possessions being handled or touched -- they should say so and decline it. The clubs, as Jeff correctly pointed out, have instructed their staffs to provide such a situation because of their commitment to customer service.

End of story ...

Mark F:

Put that onus on management -- the "no tip rule" doesn't help engender customer service -- all it does is level the elements of it to a standard lower level.

It's also a diplomatic scheme meant to make sure that the cheap wads are not seen for what they are -- the usual excuse is to say that members don't want to have other members treated at a higher level than themselves. Frankly, in most cases -- that's a smoke screen.

[Bob_Huntley]

Jeff:

Well said.

Gents:

For you tight wads out there - why all the silly rubbish w endless excuses meant to justify you being cheap. I don't doubt a good number of you feel sincerely that your clubs are YOUR clubs and that you would rather not have them touched.

Just follow what Jeff said -- politely turn down the action with a direct reply. Not the avoidance game that invariably ensues.

Those clubs that institute a no tip policy simply level the field of service downward -- why do more when the net result is the same? And, before all the dogs of cheapness bark again try to realize that tips motivate people to provide more and more customer service.

What this thread has demonstrated is that instead of a clear number of people coming to terms with their cheapness -- you have a litany of dodge ball reasons and other putdowns (e.g. blackmail , extortion, etc, etc,) that are lobbed time after time.

It's also a big time putdown when people throw forward an insulting link that such people at clubs are the equivalent of the NYC squeegee guys. Truly remarkable how cheap people can turn things around to deflect from their own tight wadness.

I find it hilarious that many of the anti-tippers or no-tip policy guys in here seemed to be the same guys that are uber-capitalists.  

Matt and Jeff,

You make the simple mistake of tarring people with whom you have a disagreement, with the brush of cheapness, meaness and being plutocratic.

I tip when I want to, sometimes too much but hopefully never too little. When I am at some of the resort courses, I feel I am in the land of the waving palms and that I am expected to pay for some slovenly attempt at cleaning my clubs with a dry rag. Quite honestly I don't like it.

As for the uber-capitalist crack, it is unwarranted, I am sure that quite a few on this board have been poor, I know I have and always thought rich was better.  


Bob

[Jeff Fortson]

I find it hilarious that many of the anti-tippers or no-tip policy guys in here seemed to be the same guys that are uber-capitalists.  What's wrong with guys trying to make a living and trying to give exceptional service to receive a tip for it.  Isn't that the mantra of capitalism?  The better the product, the better the service and the more you hustle, the more you should make?  Why should a kid who never smiles and ignores you get tipped the same as a kid that always greets you warmly and does everything he can to help you?  That's what a no-tip policy does.  Why all of a sudden are many of you promoting a utopian policy that lets every member get the "same" treatment?  Why shouldn't a guy be able to show appreciation and pay for extra service?  If you want the same service the guy that tips a lot gets then start tipping more and you'll get it too!

That is a very fair point. I believe the problem people have with it is most don't feel comfortable looking a kid in the eye and saying "no thanks." It's like kicking puppies out of the way.

All things being equal. I prefer your way. I can easily look at somebody and say no, and they'll just move on to the next sucker

John,

Thank you for a very honest expression of what I think many on this thread feel.  I understand not wanting to look a kid in the eye and tell him "thanks, but no thanks".  It doesn't feel good to do that.  I can also understand the reasons for not wanting help, especially if you keep your clubs clean and you usually carry your own bag.  Please understand that until enough people complain about outside service staff approaching players' equipment, unsolicited, that the action is on the customer to deny any help because like I said many times in this thread, it is REQUIRED for most outside service staffers to do exactly that.

My gut says that it will never change at a place like the one I work.  Why?  Because the vast majority of customers want that kind of attention and service.  So, for the foreseeable future it looks like it will be on those that don't want the help to deny it.  Like it or not, right or wrong, that is the way it is.  

I personally, always leave a $5 bill at minimum on the steering wheel of any cart I use for playing, even if I tell the kid to not give my clubs a wipe down.  That's just me, and that's because I have worked in the golf business for over a decade and understand what it's like to be on that end of the business.  That in no way means that I judge those that don't, even if they are candidates for the Hesimann.


Jeff F.

[Matt_Ward]

Bob:

With all due respect -- check out the words used by people who see such service providers as one step below the equivalent of NYC squeegee men. Did you not see what was written? Do you not understand that people who have been or are in the customer service field now would be incensed by such broad brush ignorant comments?

Bob, I "tarred" people who simply legitimized their cheapness by turning the subject matter around and holding out to dry a few examples of the kids who bombard golfers with dirty towels and grub for a few dollars.

People take a particular instance of sloppy and lazy work of the isolated kid with the dirty and /or dry towel -- which I have not defended -- and then parlayed that narrow application into a broader reach that badmouths the entire desire for legitimate customer service.

Jeff can speak to the words he has used -- please don't put into my mouth words I didn't utter. I did say a fair percentage of people are cheap and all of the rationales given can't obfuscate the fact that cheapness lives front and center with these tight wads. No doubt you can tip to a level you feel is warranted -- but just remember this -- you also have, as Jeff correctly alluded, a number of similar instances -- if not more -- where people of means sliver away with a range of inane reasons why it's so hard to push their arm down below belt buckle range and throw forward a few bucks when exceptional service has been provided.