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archie_struthers

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Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #100 on: December 11, 2008, 04:33:02 PM »
 >:( >:( >:(


I think that the no-tipping policy is sooooooooo bad!

Never have I seen a program that reduces morale ...efficiency and  esprit de corps more effectively !

Tip what you can afford ...be as generous as you can for good service...and don't worry that someone is giving more or less....

that's all folks

merry christmas

JLahrman

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Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #101 on: December 11, 2008, 05:27:32 PM »
JAL,

You make an excellent point there, it does feel at times like its mandated and it shouldn't be such.

As for the point about "hustle".   Well maybe I'm just old school, but I always thought that one hustled so they could keep thier job, not to get extra tips.  And most places that are good to work for will reward hustle in the form of pay raises and bonuses anyways.

I'm not implying that guys don't do their jobs without tips (I always did mine regardless), but staff will go out of their way to people who tip.  It's nice to think that people go above and beyond all the time no matter what, but just doesn't hold in practice.

A company was having trouble getting its employees to submit their time sheets on time.  Management decided to take out a pinch of each employee's bonus every time a late time sheet was submitted.  The problem went away.  In the article I posted a link to, people won't lose weight for their health but will do so when financially incentivized...that means that people won't even do better with their health until given a financial incentive.

There was a members at the club I worked at who was well known for giving all the bag shop guys $20 before they headed back to school.  While I didn't shaft other members, he was one who I would go above and beyond for.  Despite the fact that over the course of a season it probably averaged out that he was tipping me between $.25 and $.50  for each time he played.

In my experience, most staff at a lot of clubs get no bonuses except tips, and pay raises come when the minimum wage goes up.

Kyle Harris

Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #102 on: December 11, 2008, 05:32:56 PM »
eraged out that he was tipping me between $.25 and $.50  for each time he played.

In my experience, most staff at a lot of clubs get no bonuses except tips, and pay raises come when the minimum wage goes up.

What sort of golf and range privileges are they getting?

Peter Pallotta

Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #103 on: December 11, 2008, 05:38:31 PM »
Anthony -

How would I PREFER to tip?

Extravagantly!

Lavishly!

I'd love to be the Joe Namath of tipping.

I'd tip everyone twice if I could.

I'd be Sinatra flush with cash after beating the house in Vegas, and making sure that everyone got to wet their beaks!

That's how I'd PREFER to tip.....

Peter

Mike Benham

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Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #104 on: December 11, 2008, 05:47:23 PM »

 the "Heismann"




For me, the memory of the "Heismann" pose is OJ Simpson running through the airport for the Hertz commercials ... either that or the White Bronco ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Bob_Huntley

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Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #105 on: December 11, 2008, 05:56:36 PM »
This thread is going on too long.

It seems to me we are divided along lines that, if you tip you are a swell guy but if you dislike the unneccessary ablutions of clubs on your bag and golf cart then you are a meanie.

My club has a no tipping rule. It works. There is no shortage of applicants to work there. They have generous benefits, a 401k Plan, a Christmas gift program for all employees in which the membership contribute on average of close to a couple of hundred dollars, this on over some 1400 Regular and Social Members. Plus free golf and carts plus a meal a day and clothes dry cleaned..

If the market behaves next year like it did this I will be in line for a spot on the team.

Bob
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 06:18:43 PM by Bob_Huntley »

Tom Huckaby

Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #106 on: December 11, 2008, 06:21:25 PM »
Well said.

And I'd break the rules and tip you, Bob.

 ;D

Mike Benham

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Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #107 on: December 11, 2008, 06:26:37 PM »

And I'd break the rules and tip you, Bob.



A tip, hopefully something useful  like "Make a full shoulder turn and kick-in your right knee on the downswing"
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tony Petersen

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Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #108 on: December 11, 2008, 06:49:16 PM »

My club has a no tipping rule. It works. There is no shortage of applicants to work there. They have generous benefits, a 401k Plan, a Christmas gift program for all employees in which the membership contribute on average of close to a couple of hundred dollars, this on over some 1400 Regular and Social Members. Plus free golf and carts plus a meal a day and clothes dry cleaned..


If only every club (or even more than 1%) of golf clubs did this for their employees, then tips would be a non-issue. Unfortunately, most clubs underpay, don't offer a 401K or any kind of health insurance, have no Christmas gift program and the employees get to pay out of pocket to have their new slacks fitted, as well as all dry-cleaning expenses... That is the Troon Golf model, that is AZ golf, that is the future of the industry...

That said, I've been a bartender, I've worked in the golf biz, I'm now making a healthy income and I always tips when it's warranted... Not all of the time, but when you've been on the other side of the counter, you understand...

IMHO everyone should have to work in the service industry at some point for a mere 6 months before they turn 30... Then, this argument would not exist  ;)
Ski - U - Mah... University of Minnesota... "Seven beers followed by two Scotches and a thimble of marijuana and it's funny how sleep comes all on it's own.”

C. Squier

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Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #109 on: December 11, 2008, 07:15:22 PM »
I think there's a big difference between:

"Hi, can I help you with anything after your round of golf?" and the guy who attacks your bag w/ a muddy towel, not even noticing that you already keep your clubs clean.  The first adds value, the second is no better than a bum w/ a windex bottle. 

I really feel that if bag boys would bother to ASK instead of assume what someone wants, tips would flow like water.  For example, I've never racked my sticks at the club.  Ever.  They go home with me.  So I'm called the Heisman at my club I'm sure.  But if they would ask me if they could take my clubs to my car for me and hang onto my keys until I'm done hanging out in the men's grill, they'd probably earn a $5'er.  Save me the hassle of taking my clubs to the car, add value to my day. 

I guess the point is, we all don't have the same needs.  The people you love are the ones that think you cleaning their clubs is the coolest thing in the world....and they tip.  Find out what the other people think is the coolest thing in the world, instead of complaining they don't want their clubs cleaned.  A guy who pays membership dues at a club isn't cheap....because private golf isn't cheap.  You just haven't figured out what makes him tick.

JLahrman

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Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #110 on: December 11, 2008, 07:56:08 PM »
What sort of golf and range privileges are they getting?

Golf staff (bag shop):

Range: very little at the places I worked.

Golf: could play in the evenings if it wasn't too busy.  One place was open Monday and we could play all day, the other place was completely closed on Mondays.

Caddies could play Mondays only at the one course, not at all at the other.

Other staff (bar/grille/grounds crew) didn't have any privileges.

The golf was nice, I'll never be a member at these places and it was a great opportunity.  I'll not dispute that.  But if you're suggesting that additional compensation will come through raises and bonuses, that's wasn't the case at all in my experience.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 08:20:18 PM by JAL »

Kyle Harris

Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #111 on: December 11, 2008, 08:20:46 PM »
JAL,

I'm not in the raise or bonus camp. However, I'm fairly set in my belief that these jobs shouldn't be much more than minimum wage jobs. They are services that contribute little to society and require very little job skills to accomplish.

JLahrman

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Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #112 on: December 11, 2008, 08:23:08 PM »
JAL,

I'm not in the raise or bonus camp. However, I'm fairly set in my belief that these jobs shouldn't be much more than minimum wage jobs. They are services that contribute little to society and require very little job skills to accomplish.

Kyle, I generally agree with you.  I'm not suggesting that you should have to tip, nor did I fail to do my job for anyone who didn't.  What I'm saying is that staff is more likely to go above and beyond for someone who does tip.

Kyle Harris

Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #113 on: December 11, 2008, 08:26:24 PM »
JAL,

I'm not in the raise or bonus camp. However, I'm fairly set in my belief that these jobs shouldn't be much more than minimum wage jobs. They are services that contribute little to society and require very little job skills to accomplish.

Kyle, I generally agree with you.  I'm not suggesting that you should have to tip, nor did I fail to do my job for anyone who didn't.  What I'm saying is that staff is more likely to go above and beyond for someone who does tip.

I think that depends on the supervisor. I made it a job requirement to provide each member in my care with the same high level of service. Two kids walked on me that day, but those that remained were taking home $30-$40 in tips every night for 5 hours of work (they'd come in after school until close) about 2 weeks later as the membership were getting better care than previous and tips went up dramatically.

M. Shea Sweeney

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Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #114 on: December 11, 2008, 09:06:08 PM »
JAL,

I'm not in the raise or bonus camp. However, I'm fairly set in my belief that these jobs shouldn't be much more than minimum wage jobs. They are services that contribute little to society and require very little job skills to accomplish.

Kyle-
thats your opinion. But at the great places, if you can't seem to agree to tip the staff there or you can't seem to understand why the members of these places tip their staff, well then you must not get it.

-Mike

Kyle Harris

Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #115 on: December 11, 2008, 09:06:51 PM »
JAL,

I'm not in the raise or bonus camp. However, I'm fairly set in my belief that these jobs shouldn't be much more than minimum wage jobs. They are services that contribute little to society and require very little job skills to accomplish.

Kyle-
thats your opinion. But at the great places, if you can't seem to agree to tip the staff there or you can't seem to understand why the members of these places tip their staff, well then you must not get it.

-Mike

Please read my post after. I was a caddiemaster for 2 years.

M. Shea Sweeney

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Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #116 on: December 11, 2008, 09:07:38 PM »
Kyle-

I am fully aware of that.


M. Shea Sweeney

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Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #117 on: December 11, 2008, 09:13:38 PM »
Kyle-

I am going to be careful here, because the first time ever I am acctually pissed off about a thread of golf club atlas.

Kyle Harris

Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #118 on: December 11, 2008, 09:16:23 PM »
Mike,

I really don't have a problem at the so-called great places that have established routines and traditions for their staffs. Cherry Valley (New Jersey, where I was caddiemaster) was one of them, and the Merions and Winger Foots of the worlds are others. Those members make investments into their club that go above and beyond simply paying green fees and as such are creating a community.

It's when I pull into a muni like Lederach and see 4 bag boys standing in the staging area, then walk into the pro shop and pay $80 peak rate for a green fee with a cart I do not wish to use, I get annoyed. The acceptance of such practices by the golfing public and the attitude that those guys are just there to make a few bucks is what propagates such facilities.

I see a vast difference in these types of facilities.

How many public or CCFAD type facilities have the retired guy on a pension collecting a minimum wage job so he can get free golf? How many lower-end private clubs feature the same? How many of those facilities are currently going through a minor budget crisis and attempting to stay open? How many of those facilities charge less than $50 at any given point in time before 5PM?

It's especially frustrating when you work at such a facility and drive through the staging area to see a kid sitting in a golf cart DOING NOTHING overlooking the parking lot while you drive out to an irrigation repair with a $10.00 part you had to wait a week to get because such an expense needed approval.

M. Shea Sweeney

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Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #119 on: December 11, 2008, 09:49:07 PM »
Kyle-

Then don't play Lederach. Surely your Super, or Pro could make a call for you.
I
How many facilities are going under a budget crisis and cutting staff because of an obscene maintanence budget?

I got news for you guys-- you don't have to tip that "kid who sits there and does nothing with a dirty rag who attempts to clean your clubs that already clean"
I can't stand those places you seem to reference, and guess what, I don't play them.

Excuse me because I must be a bit biased.

You see, the "art" of tipping afforded me to live the "childhood" that I wanted to.

I was able to play Bethpage Black, I was able to play Mizuno MP-33's and Titliest Drivers. (that Gil McNally so graciously hooked me up with)

I was able to buy good catchers equipment, and a good hockey stick.

Because before I started working at a golf course and started getting "tipped". I played my dads Macgregor Tourneys, his old "Taylor Burner" that more resembles the titliest "PT", and his off-set Cleavland Vas wedges.

Because my old man just couldn't give me the cash to buy a $400 driver.

And because of the genorosity of such people, I will be able to pay off my college loans.

So when I go to a golf course I tip with the little cash that I have.

PS,

And I learned about tipping for long before I worked at golf course from my Uncle who is a New York City Fireman who doesn't even know what golf is. Anytime we were all out eating I remember my dad and his brother yelling at him to not tip so much, but he always did. Why? because he acctually cares about people.
Mike

Kyle Harris

Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #120 on: December 11, 2008, 09:57:21 PM »
Mike,

I think we're on the same page here. Perhaps I just get a bit more bull nosed about it.

Thing is, I actually enjoy PLAYING GOLF at Lederach - which is a concern that a larger number of owners seem to forget these days. I don't go up there all that often, but it's still a great golf course which I draw a lot of satisfaction from.

One of the primary appeals of the game is the diversity of facilities, many of which are already hard to access. To say that I don't have to play a place because I don't like the way its run, to me, goes against that. Furthermore, such practice may ultimately cause the course to close.

For the record, I play most of my golf at Jeffersonville, where on most days I can see the first tee from my car in the parking lot, and there is not an employee in sight.

Oh, and please don't equate tipping higher with showing someone actually cares about people - I'm sure that's not exactly how you meant it, but it's still worded very loosely and implies that those who do not tip as much, or at all, do not care about people.

Seth Berliner

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Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #121 on: December 11, 2008, 10:53:10 PM »
A one of our esteemed employes once remarked, "The Members break every rule in in the book, except the NO TIPPING RULE."

bOB

Thats the damn truth. I would not work for a club that has a no tiping rule. I think it is a piss poor way to treat employees.

As for me, I tip in cash, and always. If someone handles my bag, I give them some cash, someone serves me a drink, I give them some cash. I give cash to caddies, casino employees, and anyone else who works for tips. And as for a no-tip policy, if I am ever a member at such club, I'll still 'tip' just not directly. I'll drop a few bucks on the side walk and if the guy wants to pick it up, thats his deal. I've worked bag rooms and made my money primarily on tips ad my ex-wife worked in the food industry for a while, I understand the tipping process.

If a club pays its employees appropriately, what’s wrong with a no tipping rule?

Personally I find it pretty annoying to have to dig into my pocket every time someone touches my bag. I'll gladly pay or tip a caddie in cash (whatever the policy is), but the last thing I want to be thinking of is whether I have enough singles to tip the kid who rushes to get the clubs from my car, or cleans my 7 iron on the range with his dirty rag.

Or am I cheap for even thinking they should be tipped with singles? How much should you tip those guys?


I generally tip $2. The thing is, clubs pay their bag room guys generally minimum wage. Whatever that is in the area. You would struggle to find a course that pays much more. When I worked on the cart staff, I was paid $5.75 an hour and would average another $3 per hour in tips. I can bet that none of the 'no tip' facilities pay their guys $9 per hour. Hell, I make barely that as an assistant pro.

My club has a no tipping policy and my outside guys make $9/hour or more.  Members can contribute to an employee holiday fund that gets dispersed during the holidays that is based on total hours worked for the year.  Example: $100 in the contribution pot and a total of 100 hours worked by all employees would mean that if I worked 12 hours this year, I would get $12. 

A no tipping policy, I believe, provides better overall service.  You can bet that the staff knows who the better tippers are and will run to take care of that member while the less generous tipper will be left with a lower level of service.

Grant Saunders

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Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #122 on: December 12, 2008, 12:23:37 AM »
A question for Mike and others

Have you ever tipped any of the greens staff at a course you have played?

Have you ever been playing and the guy on the mower has stopped, moved aside and switched his machine off so you can play uninterrupted? Is this not a high level of service that should be worthy of a tip?

I assure you that the green staff at most courses are probably some of the lowest paid employees of a club. Im not talking about supers,2IC's etc, Im talking about the labourers and men on the ground. Should this in effect not warrant them tips for the job they do? The course staff are very much in the "service" industry as they present the course to the golfer.

Jeff Fortson

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Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #123 on: December 12, 2008, 01:12:11 AM »
To clarify my post, I was simply trying to share some bag room humor with you guys.  Like I said, I do the job once a week so I can practice and play for free.  The extra $100 a week or so is a nice date with my wife, or gift for the holidays, etc. 

The place I work at is a daily fee course with no members.  One of the things that needs to be stressed to some of you that don't like it when a kid comes over to your clubs and starts cleaning them without asking you first is this... for example, where I work, it is MANDATORY for you to service the guest unless the guest tells you to stop.  It is part of the customer service protocol.  I agree the job doesn't take much skill and I think the minimum wage is fine for the employer to pay the outside guys at.  I know that the service my crew gives is WAY above what you usually get and that is why we are one of the highest tipped, daily fee course outside service staffs in the desert, if not the highest.  We are more like concierges.  We recommend restaurants, other courses, spas, etc. when asked.  We valet cars, we shuttle people back and forth from their timeshares, we clean their clubs, we prepare people's travel bags and get their gear loaded up and flight ready, etc.  It's not like four guys with "dirty towels", with tattoos and earrings ravenously waiting for fresh meat.

To be honest, I could care less if I get tipped.  I simply like helping people coming in and going out when I am there and I'm genuinely interested in their experience at the course.  Maybe it's all the years I was a club pro that make me that way.  I think the need for outside services and their customer service level should depend on the type of course and its particular culture.  There is no need for over the top help at munis and small private clubs.  Resorts, big daily fee courses, and big time private clubs seem to have a clientele that demands excellent customer service. 

I think no-tipping clubs are fine but I think the hourly pay should go up to incentivize employees to service the guest.  You will get what you pay for as both an employer and a patron.  I think most no-tipping clubs do pay more per hour and I think that works out fine in most cases.

Let me debunk what I consider to be a myth that has been mentioned on this thread... outside service employees will NOT make more money if they ask people if they can help them.  Where I work, if that happens it is 3 to 1 that people deny the help.  If you are proactive and start to help them they usually appreciate it and tip accordingly.  I know there are some that are put off by that but in my experience they are a vast minority.  It's simple, if you don't want help just politely let the outside service staff member know that you don't need the help and that'll be the end of it.  You might feel uncomfortable when a kid approaches your bag without asking but how do you think that kid feels when he is expected to go help a guy that is giving him a look of disdain and general annoyance that he is coming over to help?  There is nothing more awkward than a guest that gives you that look like, "I really don't want your help because I think you are just trying to squeeze me out of $5".  The truth is, that in most cases these kids' jobs rely upon the fact that they MUST try to help you or face potential termination.

Anyway, my original post was to share some things I find to be funny.  No one is hurt when they don't get tipped.  We simply have some funny sayings and names for things to pass the day.  No one goes home thinking, "I can't believe that guy gave me the stiff arm.  I'll never forget him.  Matter of fact, I'm gonna write a book about how cheap he is." 

As for change/coin tips...  sorry, one thing any person working for tips can't stand is change.  The worst tip I ever got was from Bob Hope.  I gave him a pass because he wasn't all there upstairs and was in his late 80's and starting to lose his faculties.  I was 19 or 20 years old and parking cars while going to school.  I brought his car up for his driver who had gone in with him to a function.  I opened Mr. Hope's door escorted him around the car and he looked me right in the face and said, "Live the dream", and handed me $0.36.  I have never laughed so hard in my life.  I still have the change.  Come to think of it, that may have been the best tip I ever got in more than one way.


Jeff F.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 01:15:34 AM by Jeff Fortson »
#nowhitebelt

Matt OBrien

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Re: How do you prefer to tip?
« Reply #124 on: December 12, 2008, 01:24:04 AM »
I think there is a little karma when it comes to tipping. If I tip another caddy or bag boy well then I will see that back somewhere down the road.