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peter_mcknight

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bethpage black photos on usga website
« on: December 08, 2008, 05:50:31 PM »
The USGA has placed photos of Bethpage Black on their website, along with the corresponding yardage and hole alterations made over the last year or two.  The following represents a summary of what's there.

Hole 1:  430 yards--no change;
Hole 2:  389 yards--no change;
Hole 3:  232 yards--+27 from 2002;
Hole 4:  517 yards--this is the risk/reward hole with plenty of chipping areas around the green.  The new 542 yard tee not used;
Hole 5:  478 yards--+27 from 2002;
Hole 6:  408 yards--the fairway will extend all the way to the green in 2009.  Possibly a shorter tee around 340-350 to encourage a drive at it;
Hole 7:  525/489 yards--+36 from 2002 and a regraded fairway so the 525 tee ground can be used;
Hole 8:  210 yards--green extended in front towards pond;
Hole 9:  460 yards--+42 from 2002--probably will be 0.125 stroke harder in 2009 than 2002;
Out:  3649 yards par 35

Hole 10:  508 yards--+13 from 2002.  Fairway extended 40 yards back to tee, 224 to reach fairway;
Hole 11:  435 yards--no change;
Hole 12:  504 yards--left corner bunker reduced to encourage aggressive play down left side;
Hole 13:  605/554 yards--+51 from 2002.  Fairway regraded and work done around the green;
Hole 14:  158 yards--+0 from 2002, but almost new green, two new back hole locations and a little tounge in the left front (which would probably play in the 140 yard range);
Hole 15:  459 yards--no change;
Hole 16:  490 yards--+11 from 2002;
Hole 17:  207 yards--no change;
Hole 18:  411 yards--slighly tighter and deeper bunkers and same green that's out of place with the rest of the course
In:  3777 yards, par 35

Total:  7426 yards par 70

If one had their druthers, one would prefer starting early Thursday AM on the front, then Friday PM on the back in order to make a decent run at it in the first round.

Controlling for the weather, I'd predict a score at 280 to win but no higher.


Boston Bruins--tremendous hockey in the hub right now!!

Kyle Harris

Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2008, 05:53:27 PM »
Is this complete? If so, there are a bunch of omissions such as the fairway bunkers on 9 and 13.

I didn't think they were using the new back tee on the 9th for the US Open?

Also, how come the reduction in fairway widths from the 2002 US Open are not listed?

Jay Flemma

Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2008, 06:10:53 PM »
Great news Peter, especially about 6.  Can we get pix?  That downhill approach has always been one of fave shots on the course.  Have they changed the bunkering around the green?  That approach has been almost completely encircled by sand...

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2008, 07:28:39 PM »
Kyle - the bunkers on 9 and 13 have both been constructed.

Jay - the 6th green is still encircled by sand and creates some nasty lies for up and downs.  Mickelson had all he could do to make 5 on that hole after hitting it in the hay and then the bunker in 2002.

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2008, 07:38:25 PM »
Peter - the only change I truly don't like is the new green on 14.  It looks totally unnatural, but it does create interesting pin positions.  That green may actually penalize the public golfer more than the pros if they put a grandstand behind the green as they did in 2002.  The real fear there now is that you go over the green and find yourself at the bottom of the hill.  If the grandstand is there, the pros will get a free drop.

Turning 6 into a driveable par 4 makes a lot of sense.  Blind tee shot, lots of trouble around the green, but you could get lucky with a relative simple up and down for birdie.  It adds an element that has been missing on the course IMHO.

As far as the rest of the changes, I hope the USGA will show the same thought and versatility that they did at Torrey Pines.  As an example, there's no need to play 3 all the way back everyday... given different weather condtions all the par 3's can play completely different from different tees and angles.

Rick Sides

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Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2008, 07:43:30 PM »
I can't stand this concept of continuing to add length.  I know the big boys hit it far but what is it going to be 8,000 yards soon?

Jay Flemma

Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2008, 07:50:03 PM »
Geoff, is it like that still now with the change?  I saw it earlier and it didn't have a mown ramp...

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2008, 07:58:11 PM »
Jay - the grass is cut at fairway height over the hill as the original design intended (paging P. Young to confirm).  The green complex has not been changed since 2002 to my knowledge.  I believe the fairway runs out short of the green (maybe 20 yds. short) and there is a rough apron before the front bunkers.

Jay Flemma

Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2008, 08:12:37 PM »
good. glad to hear it.  I love 6.  my fave stretch is 2-6, in fact.  Great variety and angles, etc...

Phil_the_Author

Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2008, 09:16:12 PM »
Guys,

I've been privy to a bunch of behind-the-scenes info that I can share.

The 6th hole has had the fairway restored to the hillside and it will remain that way for the Open.

As of today, neither the 6th nor any other hole will be shortened to allow for play as a drivable par-four. The reason for this is two-fold. First and foremost, Tilly did not design a single two-shotter on the course to be drivable. By making one play that way it goes against the design intent. Secondly, there are only two holes with green complexes that would allow for drivability as a true option. Neither of them has been mentioned by anyone on this site.

Geoffrey mentioned that he hopes, "The USGA will show the same thought and versatility that they did at Torrey Pines..."

Rest assured, Geoffrey, they are and will. For example, there is strong comsideration to having the 7th hole play two days as the 525-yard par-4 and two days as it's true championship 600-yard par-five. One of the factors that make this a possibility is that it is reachable in two from the back tee. This was shown to the USGA when it was pointed out that the first person to reach it in two was Jimmy Hines in August of 1935 during a test round before the course was opened for play in 1936. He hit driver and three-iron OVER the green! Yes, in case anyone is wondering, the trees on the right corner past the bunker were there. Though smaller, they were, none-the-less non-carryable with a drive.

The tee used on #4 during 2002 was the upper one at 534-yards. There has been no lengthening of the hole.

The fairway on #7 was not regraded. The new tee was placed on regraded land so it would be flat and  abit higher than the forward one.

The green on #8 wasn't extended in the front... it was recovered. One can see in photographs, including one on the clubhouse hallway wall, that the front edge came all the way to the crest of the hill leading down to the water. The question of high tight to mow that grass has yet to be answered. There will be at least one day where the hole will be located far up front so that the water will be in play, possibly with a forward tee location as well.

There are no plans to use the new far back tee on #9. This was neither requested nor planned by the USGA.

The 10th hole's fairway has been widened. Consideration to widen both it & #11 even further to their right in order to bring into play the fairway bunkers is being given.

Speaking of #11. Here is another green where putting surfaces have been recovered. Primarily in the back, this will allow for back hole locations not available in 2002. Also, it seems that everyone misses that there was widening done to one of the left-side fairway bunkers. This will bring more risk/reward into play on the drive with decision as to exact landing areas having to be made.

#13 - The championship tee was used in 2002 and the hole measured 595-yards in length. The new tee will allow the hole to play between 640-660 yards. This lengthening actually restores the hole to the designed intent as a true three-shotter with the second shot having to take into account the left-side bunker in the narrow swale 160-yards from the green. Again, risk/reward as one will either lay-up at the 180-yard mark or try to thread their second shot into the area 90-130 yards from the green. The fairway bunker short of the green now is definitely in play for anyone going at it in two.

The green on #14 that many seem to dislike is another where it is a restoration rather than a change in the back portion. The green was originally designed to run to the crst of the hill (as it now does) and to extend right behind the right-side bunker (which it now does once again). The new front-left tongue is, in my opinion, a wonderful addition. I fully expect that Sunday will see a hole cut in it's center with a far front right tee location. This will be about a 135-yard shot. It may also be one of the most difficult shots they will face all week for there is absolutely no safe way to attack the hole. One either succeeds or is in deep doo-doo! Even playing it safely long or a bit right will leave an incredibly difiicult, lightning-fast, downhill/sidehill putt.

The new green configuration on #14 will also allow for another change in USGA philosophy - multiple tee locations. From front tee to front left green is 135 yards. from back left tee to back right hole location is almost 190 yards. How is that for versatility Geoffrey? In fact, one can expect varying tee locations on every hole throughout the championship.

The new far back tee on #15 will once again have a grandstand built on it. Just as in 2002, the USGA recognizes that it is just too long and too an unfair a hole from back there.

As we get closer to the Open I'll be free to share more, but feel very free to ask away. I'll answer all questions that I can...

Kyle Harris

Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2008, 09:37:01 PM »
Phil,

While I understand the idea of restoring the back of 14 green, there is no way Tillinghast designed that green back to have such a straight edge and evenly graded slope down to the bottom. How come the original hillside wasn't preserved?

Sam Maryland

Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2008, 09:40:51 PM »
a few more changes that I think took place since '02, possibly already mentioned...

#4 -- all trees removed from behind the green.

#8 -- hasn't the size of the bunkering increased significantly since '02?

#9 -- don't forget the new bunker added at the inside corner of dogleg.

#11 -- as mentioned by Phil, last part of left bunker moved out closer to the fairway.  you think it's perfect only to come over the crest and find it in that new part of the bunker!

#12 -- significant clearing of brush/trees all the way down the right side.

#13 -- new bunker added on the left that will catch some tee shots.

#14 -- was the deep bunker on the left in place during the last Open?

as for #6 as a drivable par-4, I just don't think it could be done under Open conditions (if ever).  in dry conditions anything much more than 6-iron that hits at the middle of the green ends up off the back.  and the angle from tee to green wouldn't seem to allow for the ball to bounce up through the very narrow opening to the front of the green between the bunkers. I think getting it in the greenside bunkers would be about all they could hope for...on the flipside, might be darn tough to keep it on the green from US Open rough within 20 yds of #6 green.  finally, I bet the vast majority of players lay it up even with the extended fairway - getting it over the hill won't be a prob but given the angle from the tee keeping it in the fairway will be very tough.

Matt_Ward

Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2008, 09:58:27 PM »
Let me weigh in with a positive thoughts ...

Having the fairway ADDED back to the 6th makes perfect sense. There was no reason to have done otherwise with the '02 event.

I don't know if another tee box can be created to tempt players to go for it but it would be a nice feature for future events.

I am pleased that one of my suggestions that I made quite some time ago is being looked at -- to wit, the idea in having the 7th plays as par-5 for two rounds and as a par-4 for the other two rounds. The hole was originally meant to be played as a par-5 -- bringing that back into play would be a plus given the large bunker that was created for such a purpose to start with.

Phil Young:

You focus on the "design intent" of Tillinghast -- frankly Tillie didn't envision the way the USGA and the powers that be have created the existing Black the way it is now. The course has been morphed into a far different beast --one that has completely abandoned anything close to finesse play and is nothing more than an overdosed legthened layout.

One good example -- is when the par-5 7th was made 4 to be a par-4 for the '02 event. The 18th is also quite frankly grotesque and is nowhere near being a Tillie type hole.

The change at #13 to max length is part and parcel of what has gone wrong with BB since the '02 event. It's all about the length per se -- how bout having #13 play as a real risk and reward hole with players having an attempt to go for it as Tiger successfully did when he won there?

The issue I have with BB is that the course has made a complete and total move to being a US Open set-up for everyday play. The overall widths have been narrowed way too much and the density of the rough is simply along the lines of wedge out and continue on from that point.

Mike Davis needs to come up with something along the lines with what he did at Oakmont and even Torrey Pines because frankly the likes of BB are nothing more than a grip and rip show and I say that as a long time lover of the place.


Mike Golden

Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2008, 11:41:35 PM »
Guys,

I've been privy to a bunch of behind-the-scenes info that I can share.

The 6th hole has had the fairway restored to the hillside and it will remain that way for the Open.

As of today, neither the 6th nor any other hole will be shortened to allow for play as a drivable par-four. The reason for this is two-fold. First and foremost, Tilly did not design a single two-shotter on the course to be drivable. By making one play that way it goes against the design intent. Secondly, there are only two holes with green complexes that would allow for drivability as a true option. Neither of them has been mentioned by anyone on this site.


#'s 1 & 11 would be those greens, Phil.  Of course, their length makes it not possible no matter where they put the tees unless you put #1 on the left side of the fairway near the bunkers on #18

Jim Adkisson

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Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2008, 12:08:04 AM »
Secondly, there are only two holes with green complexes that would allow for drivability as a true option. Neither of them has been mentioned by anyone on this site.

Phil, I suspect that Buffalo Jack would say that 18 is one of these drivable greens.  :)

Phil_the_Author

Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2008, 12:29:55 AM »
Matt,

Mike Davis issued a memorandum a number of months back that he sent out to all future U.S. Open & Amateur sites including Bethpage in which he specifically asked that the fairways be WIDENED!

You also noted that, "The course has been morphed into a far different beast --one that has completely abandoned anything close to finesse play and is nothing more than an overdosed legthened layout..."

Sorry Matt, but I disagree. The lengthening of the course is only "enjoyed" by those that play at the highest levels. The longest tees are not ever used other than for tournament play, if then. Again, the new 9th & the 15thh far back tees are not being used by the USGA for the Open. The course played from the back tees during normal use rarely even approaches 7,100 yards in length. If the paying public plays from that range rather than the 6,600-6,700-yard normal set-up they lose their ability to complain about the fairness of it... it is their choice.

You also noted that, "The issue I have with BB is that the course has made a complete and total move to being a US Open set-up for everyday play. The overall widths have been narrowed way too much and the density of the rough is simply along the lines of wedge out and continue on from that point..."

Again, please see what I wrote. This is NOT what the USGA recommended or wanted. It is a decision made by the Park itself. They have cited numerous examples of praise for it from the same public that others say feel it is unfair. I know this for a fact. In fact comments for it far exceed complaints against. Their desire is to simply give the public as true a U.S. Open experience as possible. Agree or not with their decision, but at least it is well-meant and they really do listen to their constituents on this point.

Mike,

Good guess but incorrect. Neither 1 nor 11. So as to not create a guessing game, they are 7 & 12. #1 could not have a new tee located down in th evalley and left side due to spectator flow and bunkers from 18. #11's green entrance is just simply too narrow and the pitch to the entire green too severe for "drivability."

#12 has a much wider entrance and several tiers, especially if a tee box was in the 320+ range. #7 has the best green of all for this. I am certain that few would consider this as they think of it as a par-5. In fact it was my suggestion that if a "drivable par-4" be mandatory that it be done on 7. I also suggested that the championship tee be used. I told them to imagine the architectural statement that could be made by playing the hole one day as a drivable par-4, one as a normal long par-4 and one day as a long par-5 with the choice for Sunday based upon the play from the other three days. I still strongly maintained that it would be against all architectural design intent to have a drivable par-4 on the Black, especially since Tilly designed one for Bethpage on the original Blue course.

Kyle, you asked, "While I understand the idea of restoring the back of 14 green, there is no way Tillinghast designed that green back to have such a straight edge and evenly graded slope down to the bottom. How come the original hillside wasn't preserved?"

The "original hillside" wasn't original. It was the product of now more than 75 years of wind, rain and erosion. It was in terrible shape and dangerous in a number of areas as can be seen from those who have fallen while trying to walk down it. It needed real cleaning up and yes, "straightening." As far as the green edge being straight, you are incorrect. I have many images of Tilly greens where the back, and other, edges are run straight across them. You forget that on this hole he simply followed the flow of the hill which gave and gives a straight edge to the crest.

Sam, you asked if the size of the bunkering on #8 has been increased significantly since "02. No, it hasn't. You've just been in them more often than most! ;D Seriously, though, the back left does seem a bit larger to me as well. This, though was not consciously done by anyone and may be the work of Craig who enjoys tinkering a bit on his own.

You also asked if the deep bunker left of #14 in place in '02? No, it wasn't. That was added when the front tongue was added. It actually makes the hole play easier. Which would you rather hit out of left of that green, sand or thick wiry rough? Especially if you have a front left hole location in the tongue. No, the bunker was needed to make that particular aspect of it play more fair. The bunker that is there now is a much better one than the one originally installed which was narrow and mostly devoid of shapes.

Jim, yes, Buffalo Jack would disagree!  ;D
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 01:01:33 AM by Philip Young »

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2008, 08:16:04 AM »
Phil - Thanks for the color on the changes at Bethpage.  I have followed your threads on the topic over the past few years with great interest.

I must admit my initial reaction to the changes was mixed at first but most of them are beginning to grow on me.  13 in particular seems to make sense, because the additional teeing ground does restore the teeth back into that hole under normal weather conditions.  I have to believe that the USGA will look to use multiple teeing grounds there and that hole will play vastly different from 590 to 660.  Frankly, when someone told me about the new back tee, I had a hard time comprehending where they possibly could have put it until I saw it with my own eyes.

On the issue of distance, I grudgingly think that the lenghening that has taken place is not only needed but would have been accepted by Tillie himself.  The Black's condition (and the condition of the other courses at the complex) is in large part due to the success of the Open.  As a result, the course needs to attend to the needs of the tournament and given the advances in technology the back teeing grounds are a necessity.  However, the important develoment is that the USGA is not requiring that they be used everyday, just that they have the OPTION to use them.  Because of that stance, I see the new tees as adding to both the challenge and variety of the golf course which is a net positive IMHO.  Couple that with the fact that Tillie was given the task of creating a "man-size" course whose difficulty would rival Pine Valley and it seems to dovetail nicely with the architects orginal intent.

I am glad to hear that they are contemplating widening the fairways on 10 and 11 to bring the bunkers back into play.  The pros will be swinging for the fences on 10 and it would be nice to see balls rolling on a firm fairway into the right fairway bunker on 10 which always seems to attract my drives.

Regarding 14, any sense if a grandstand will eliminate some of the fear of falling off the back?

What was the thought on the bunkers short left of 4 over by the tees on 5 that were added a few years ago?  That was the other addition that perplexed me.

Matt_Ward

Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2008, 10:42:47 AM »
Phil:

A few rebuttals ...

Bethpage needs big time W-I-D-E-N-I-N-G -- not a few tweaks here and there. I played the course a few times in '08 and was shocked to the point of anger that the place has become a bowling alley framed with rough that is simply a version of what I played at Portrush Dunluce's layout -- hack out w SW and proceed from there.

There would be nothing wrong with BB's long par-4's being at minimum 40 yards across -- given the mega lengths that have been brought forward.

Phil, you've got it wrong -- where is the finesse play at BB ?

It's all about BOMBS AWAY ON NEARLY ALL THE HOLES ! (and I say that as a person who enjoys htiting driver and can play the lengths one sees at the course now).

I understand better than anyone what the purpose of a US Open is and what BB can provide. But BB is the modern equivalent of Nolan Ryan -- just a 100 mph high and hard fastball with every pitch.

I understand fully the situation with what happened at #9 and #15. #15 played tough enough at 460 yards and frankly there is no reason why the previous tee at 435 yards would not have worked. The '02 Open had the 15th play to 4.6 scoring average and frankly was just borderline fair given the sheer elevation of the approach and the extreme narrowness of the fairway and the way the left side of the fairway was pushed further towards the right.

This is the same "cutting" issue which was done with the 12th -- force the players to play further down the right side and add even more yards. I see no reason why the left side could not be attained by those who have the guts and execution to pull it off.

I don't know what people are thinking with all these "improvements" -- many are on the add-on length equation -- because BB was already tough enough before. To borrow the old expression, the place was not so broke that it required such a "fix."

When the facility says it's getting compliments from the average person -- this is the same average person who flocks to McDonald's everyday and believes the burger they are eating is cuisine.

The greatness of the Black is not to be some sort of 21st century BEAST that likely no one can play. Look at what people shot during the '02 Open --the proof was set then that the Black had enough muscle to do what is needed. Now we have this desire to steroid the place to an obscene degree.

The 13th is another good example of that. If a player hits the rough crossing the fairway bunker you referenced previously is not sure thing by any means. Putting the green out of play for any heroic "go to" on the second shot only lessens the risk / reward element.

Phil, try to realize that others love the Black no less than you and there are many people who have spoken to me and other golf related folks throughout the NYC metro area that are shaking their head in utter bewilderment on such a hellbent purpose.

I have no issue with a "man sized" course but it should be the equivalent of a "predator sized" layout akin to the creature of that famed Arnold S movie.

Nicholas Coppolo

Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2008, 08:28:00 PM »
The US Open is an examination of repeatability, its about answering a series of problems with the one and only right answer and being penalized for those that are wrong, it's NOT about creating and/or inventing solutions....we have other tournaments and majors for that.

For this purpose BB is flawless, in my opinion.

I try to play it once or twice a month when I'm home and I've never thought it was too narrow I have felt however that the bunkering was set too far back.......

For everyday play, I hear many saying what essentially amounts to "its too hard", but no one address the glaring lack of open approaches and "forced" carries over open ground, but those things get a pass because they were intrinsic to Tilly's "original" design (what ever truth that holds)  while shrinking fairways are a result of inconsiderate "Mcdonalds eating" idiots who don't know golf architecture from their own asses.

Not every course can be everything to everyone...nor should it me in my opinion.

 BB is hard, its a test, you know the questions, and you need to answer them.  You need to hit driver long to the appropriate positions, and follow it up with high approach shots to ANYWHERE on the green.  You need to repeat that for 18 holes.  Its very simple.  If that is not an interesting challenge to you, don't play.

I ADORE TOC and BB.
I also like epics and comedies.
and blondes and brunettes.
and indian food and sushi

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2008, 08:55:08 PM »
  You need to hit driver long to the appropriate positions, and follow it up with high approach shots to ANYWHERE on the green.  You need to repeat that for 18 holes.  Its very simple.  If that is not an interesting challenge to you, don't play.

For me, it's not and i don't.  haven't been back since 2004.


Kyle Harris

Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2008, 09:43:52 PM »
The US Open is an examination of repeatability, its about answering a series of problems with the one and only right answer and being penalized for those that are wrong, it's NOT about creating and/or inventing solutions....we have other tournaments and majors for that.

For this purpose BB is flawless, in my opinion.

I try to play it once or twice a month when I'm home and I've never thought it was too narrow I have felt however that the bunkering was set too far back.......

For everyday play, I hear many saying what essentially amounts to "its too hard", but no one address the glaring lack of open approaches and "forced" carries over open ground, but those things get a pass because they were intrinsic to Tilly's "original" design (what ever truth that holds)  while shrinking fairways are a result of inconsiderate "Mcdonalds eating" idiots who don't know golf architecture from their own asses.

Not every course can be everything to everyone...nor should it me in my opinion.

 BB is hard, its a test, you know the questions, and you need to answer them.  You need to hit driver long to the appropriate positions, and follow it up with high approach shots to ANYWHERE on the green.  You need to repeat that for 18 holes.  Its very simple.  If that is not an interesting challenge to you, don't play.

I ADORE TOC and BB.
I also like epics and comedies.
and blondes and brunettes.
and indian food and sushi


Nicholas,

The problem is that the narrowing of the fairways has completely removed any sort of decision making or integration with hazards that were designed into the golf course.

For example, bailing out left on the 5th hole and removing as much of the bunker from the tee shot as possible is no longer an option. The fairway is at least 5-10 yards narrower now than it was when I first played it in 2003.

TX Golf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2008, 09:44:30 PM »
would it be possible to post the photos on here... I was having trouble finding them on the website!!!

Nicholas Coppolo

Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2008, 11:17:12 AM »


Nicholas,

The problem is that the narrowing of the fairways has completely removed any sort of decision making or integration with hazards that were designed into the golf course.

For example, bailing out left on the 5th hole and removing as much of the bunker from the tee shot as possible is no longer an option. The fairway is at least 5-10 yards narrower now than it was when I first played it in 2003.
[/quote]

I have thought about the 5th hole as well and I realized:

  If there was fairway on the left, either in the flats or the slope, it would greatly diminish the value of the hazard.  You cannot bail out there, and just accept a difficult approach.  You must take on as much of the bunker as you can in order to stay in the fairway.  Otherwise, no one would take on the bunker, most would hit a loopy cut up onto the hillside and hope it feed down to the fairway.

You could say, you should have fairway left because you should be able to bailout and choose a difficult approach over the trees or drawing hard around them, but this feat poses no challenge to the pros from a fairway lie.

And this hole is supposed to be difficult....You must bite off a huge chunk of the hazard to have a reasonable approach.

I just view it as a test.

Mike Golden

Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2008, 11:45:04 AM »


Nicholas,

The problem is that the narrowing of the fairways has completely removed any sort of decision making or integration with hazards that were designed into the golf course.

For example, bailing out left on the 5th hole and removing as much of the bunker from the tee shot as possible is no longer an option. The fairway is at least 5-10 yards narrower now than it was when I first played it in 2003.

I have thought about the 5th hole as well and I realized:

  If there was fairway on the left, either in the flats or the slope, it would greatly diminish the value of the hazard.  You cannot bail out there, and just accept a difficult approach.  You must take on as much of the bunker as you can in order to stay in the fairway.  Otherwise, no one would take on the bunker, most would hit a loopy cut up onto the hillside and hope it feed down to the fairway.

You could say, you should have fairway left because you should be able to bailout and choose a difficult approach over the trees or drawing hard around them, but this feat poses no challenge to the pros from a fairway lie.

And this hole is supposed to be difficult....You must bite off a huge chunk of the hazard to have a reasonable approach.

I just view it as a test.

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the brilliance of #5 (and why it is one of my favorite par 4's in golf, possibly surpassed only by the Alps at NGLA) is that you have this intimidating tee shot over the diagonal hazard that allows you to bite off as much as you dare but, if you want to go Moriarity, it's a pretty easy bogie, even out of the hazard as long as you layup.  Making par or birdie, though, is quite another story, unless you leave an approach of less than 170 yards.  In my 300 lifetime rounds l've made one birdie and that was when the pin location was front right and very accessible (I also hit it stiff from 150 after a lifetime drive).

Matt_Ward

Re: bethpage black photos on usga website
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2008, 01:05:33 PM »
Nicholas Coppolo:

You can MAKE any course a "TEST."

The issue is that the Black need not be so utterly one dimensional that the architectural elements - which Mike G alluded to -- are then completely negated.

I am a big time lover of Bethpage but the Black's transformation reminds me of the transformation of Annakin / re: Star Wars fame to the dark side of The Force.

The course has been bolstered to be tough as nails with little else to highlight from a real shotmaking perspective. It's just simply one bombed tee shot followed by another -- with approach shots that have to be a zillion feet high in the air to greens that are relatively featureless.

The bones that were there when all this work got started were discarded in so many ways for a "new" presentation of the Black and the "improved" version of the course today is far afield from the one I fell in love with over 30 years ago.