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John Kirk

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Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2008, 04:02:53 PM »
Wodehouse's "Oldest Member" is still alive. I know, I met him a few months back.  He still has a lot to say but he says the core values of golf have disappeared with a changing culture.

Slag,

Seems everyman's prerogative to say culture is falling apart as they get old.

John Kirk

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Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2008, 04:06:43 PM »
Disagree.  I say in the grand scheme of things, culture moves forward positively.

"Culture regresses at a rate by 50 percent every 18 months."

Funny anyway.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2008, 04:12:41 PM »
In my opinion, the reason that most golf writing is pedestrian at best is because it is the product of reporters.

Sports, unlike all other avenues of literary genre's, has been most defined by the score of a player in an event rather than the stories that the games inspire. No where is this as evident as it is with golf.

Golf has also become defined by those who play the game for money and how they do week in and week out. Because of this, those who report on the results of these are considered the experts and most capable of writing what should be the literature of the game. Yet it is because they think as reporters first that any chance to create literature from this most wonderful of pasttimes becomes nearly impossible.

I have seen but a single review of a golf book where the reviewer encouraged those who would read the book to do so "slowly and to savor every word." It was written by the only major golf writer that i know who isn't/wasn't a reporter...

TEPaul

Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2008, 04:16:00 PM »
TonyM:

It's probably better and more indicative to quote everything in that post from another thread that you said in the first post of this thread was stolen from another thread. It was from Dave Schmidt to Tom Huckaby;


"I don't see it, Tom.  And I still want to know what JK would see in that picture!  
If what you said was true, somebody would have noted something original by now.  Nobody has.  Nobody will.  We're just not that good.  
Brilliant thought is a prerequisite to brilliant writing.  The latter cannot exist without the former.
I know brilliant writers.  I went to school with a few, I've worked with a few, I'm friends with a few and I regularly read the rest that are out there in the world.  There are none in golf, except maybe Dan Jenkins when he's on.  It's hard to do with a topic that simply isn't that intellectually challenging."




Tony, personally, I don't buy much of what Dave Schmidt says on here. For that reason I guess I don't buy that much of what he thinks about golf and golf architecture and it occurs to me he probably feels the same about me and what I say and think on here. That also includes what he apparently thinks about the Rules of Golf (because that happens to be the subject we've mostly discussed with one another and mostly off line). And now it probably includes what he says about golf writers or golf writing.

But when I say all that I sure don't mean to be rude or in any way denigrating and I sure don't mean to insult him personally or what he says generally. I don't intend any of this that way and I hope he doesn't take it that way.

But then what does it mean? What do I mean?

I believe, and have for years, that there is just something practically ineffable about golf and apparently golf architecture too, and in a way and a depth I'm not aware exists in most other sports or games. David Schmidt may not look at it that way and probably doesn't. I don't pretend to know why it is so in golf but I believe it is. I do recognize, though, that it is golf above all other games that I know best. I just don't know that much about other games and sports even though I've tried them and played them, but I guess never in the way and in the depth I have with golf and perhaps now golf architecture. If I had with other games and sports perhaps I'd feel about them and their playing fields the way I do with golf----but some nagging little jot always tells me I never really would with the others. ;)

Also I believe that there is some undercurrent phenomenon to do with golf and golf architecture that far more than other games and sports makes so many who play golf take it remarkably personally, perhaps internalize it somehow and filter out their opinions about it and all things to do with it as if they are the only ones who are right in their opinions and consequently most all others who don't completely agree with them are wrong.

What is it that makes so many golfers do that and think that way compared to other sports and games? I don't know, I probably never will but I have little doubt it is both true and one of the eternal fascinations about the entire thing. Unfortunately, that very thing may tend to make some of us or even most of us on here act both a little and perhaps sometimes a lot intellectually arrogant sometimes. :)

I'm not saying what David Schmidt thinks about golf writing is wrong. If he feels there's not any really good golf writing and that works for him that's fine. It doesn't work for me and I'm pretty sure his opinion may not work for numerous others as well. Matter of fact I know it, I've seen them, I know them and I've talked to them and I'm talking about both the readers and some writers.

But my ultimate point is if he feels that way it in no-wise means he's more intelligent or better informed about any of it, including writing, than anyone else because I think more than most other games or sports anyone gets out of it what they bring to it, and that really is unique, personal and can be vastly different from one to another.

Intellectual arrogance on here seems to me to be something that has created some unexpected and unwanted dynamics, arguments, personal problems between some etc.

In that vein, I would give you again one of the coolest and most contemplative thoughts and adages I've ever heard on golf and architecture. Unfortunately I'm giving it to you for about the thirteenth time, but so what, if it's good, repeat it, even many times. ;)

Bill Coore said: "Always try to know what you don't know."

I thought about that for a long time (some years) and then I asked him: "But Bill, how can you know what you don't know?"

He just chuckled and said: "That's true, I just mean we always need to remember none of us know it all and none of us probably ever will."

I suspect golf has some real mysteries for the basic reasons of its unique differences from other games and sports that are both deep and enduring and it holds them close not letting them go easily and I think that's very cool. But I also feel maybe I've gotten somewhat anthropomorphic in my attitude towards golf and architecture by extension so maybe it's real mysteries isn't just golf or even in it, maybe they're in me and in you too.

Isn't it true to say that when one looks in the mirror they don't usually see what others see? Maybe they don't want to see what they see and maybe they do, but in my opinion, all of that is definitely not unimportant!

Same probably goes for what someone, anyone gets from a writer and a book.


;)





TEPaul

Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2008, 04:30:16 PM »
"For all the American positives, from democracy to the automobile to sending a man to the moon, we have been the single most destructive force worldwide to the notion of culture.  I'm not sure whether it started with the free press, mobility and the automobile or the first retirement home, but somewhere along the line, we killed the family in the name of "progress", and that started the death knell tolling on culture. "


David:

I guess that would depend on how anyone views the subject of culture. If one is into change and the dynamics and benefits of change, the American culture is often viewed as not just a good thing but a remarkably good thing. I will admit there is surely a real duality built into that. Looking back, I realize how often I've been to particularly western Europe and how many over there I've gotten to know really well. In many ways most of the Western European nations and their peoples admire their own cultures that hold tightly to various traditions and traditional practices but within that always seems to be the duality of real frustrations with lack of change that would include various opportunities. It always seemed to me those peoples looked longingly at the USA (even if sometimes I had to keep them up drinking into the middle of the night before they would actually admit that) with their extreme willingness and propensity to promote change---sometimes even for the sake of change itself.

TEPaul

Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2008, 04:36:10 PM »
" It's also why that theory I floated this morning is completely backwards."

Mr. Schmidt:

Yes, I agree and I thought it was backwards too but at the time I wasn't sure whether it was backwards or whether it was you who's backwards.  ;)

You seem to believe that Edison went through a million theories and trials and errors on his way to inventing the light-bulb. Do you think it's possible that he started out trying to invent "darkness" in the light of day? 

Today you are touting John Kavanaugh as some brilliant mind and provoker of thought but perhaps tomorrow you might realize he is almost precisely the opposite of that----eg a mishmash of words and free associations that seem interesting at first but on analysis mean little. On the other hand, perhaps today I think he's the latter but by tomorrow I will think he's some brilliant mind and provoker of thought. I won't count on that possiblilty, however, because between now and then I don't believe I plan on speaking with him or reading anything he has to say.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 04:42:54 PM by TEPaul »

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2008, 04:38:14 PM »
Tom Chiarella's Thurday's Game (from a professional writer)
A.B. Hollingsworth's Flatbellies (from an amateur writer)
Turk Pipkin's Fast Greens (from someone in between)
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

TEPaul

Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2008, 04:46:24 PM »
"I don't think somebody can really understand light until he understands darkness."

Hmmm, Wow, really deep, Kimmosabe!  ;)

Which came first, civilization or the wilderness?

(warning, there's a semi-trick question on deck!)

Norbert P

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Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2008, 04:51:25 PM »
John, the oldest member didn't say culture was falling apart, but that it was changing.  Maybe he meant that the focus on the values of liesurely activities has shifted and that searches for deeper meanings are unsought, perhaps in lieu of the instant gratification of card and pencil scores, perhaps in the realm of the seven deadly sins, I don't know.
  I'll ask him next time I see him.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Rich Goodale

Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2008, 04:51:26 PM »
Tom and Dave

Both of you should know that Edison didn't invent the light bulb.  He just had a better lawyer than real inventor, Swan.

J-P P

http://www.coolquiz.com/trivia/explain/docs/edison.asp

John Chilver-Stainer

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Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2008, 04:58:30 PM »
I’m surprised noone has mentioned Michael Murphy’s novel up to now, considering some of the discussion group pseudonyms were taken from the book - or was Lloyd Coles’s reference to “Zen” indirectly disqualifying it from the discussion? There was a thread on GITK about a year ago - not many gave it much credence but some raved about it.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31770.70.html

Joe Hancock

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Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2008, 04:58:57 PM »
I wonder if combing a few elements of this thread is bad idea.....




The Edison Museum, not open to the public
Its haunted towers rise into the clouds above it
Folks drive in from out of town to gaze in amazement when they see it
Just outside the gate, I look into the courtyard
Underneath the gathering thunderstorm
Through the iron bars, I see the Black Mariah
Revolving slowly on its platform
In the topmost tower, a light burns dim
A coiling filament glowing within
The Edison Museum, once a bustling factory,
Today's but a darkened cobweb-covered hive of industry
The tallest, widest, and most famous
Haunted mansion in New Jersey
Behind a wooden door, the voice of Thomas Alva
Recites a poem on a phonograph
Ghosts float up the stair
Like silent moving pictures
The loyal phantoms of his in-house staff
A wondrous place it is, there can be no doubt
But no one ever goes in
And no one ever goes out
So when your children quarrel, and nothing seems to quell them
Just tell them that you'll take them to the Edison Museum
The largest independently owned and operated
Mausoleum

(Lyrics by They Might be Giants)
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tim Bert

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Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2008, 05:11:51 PM »
I believe, and have for years, that there is just something practically ineffable about golf and apparently golf architecture too, and in a way and a depth I'm not aware exists in most other sports or games. David Schmidt may not look at it that way and probably doesn't.

Well, it's too bad you think that, Tom, because I happen to agree with you.  I think there is something absolutely etherial about golf and architecture.  I think there's real mystery and beauty there. 

My point is merely that the guys who write about this beautiful, mysterious and etherial game do a rather pedestrian job at it.

It deserves better.  "Tiger then rolled in a five-footer for birdie and a two-shot lead" simply doesn't do the game justice in the context in which you and I think of it.

That's also why I thought Barney's exoticness topic was so interesting.  It's also why that theory I floated this morning is completely backwards.  There's nothing more exotic, unique and eternal than the risks presented by nature.  But we'll get to that...

Not all writing ultimately get expressed in the format of words... and here all along I thought you took Caddyshack as a work of genius.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2008, 05:16:34 PM »
Memo to self: do the dumb things I gotta do today. Touch the puppet head.

Robert Thompson

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Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2008, 05:39:25 PM »
Isn't there a significant difference between a columnist and someone doing a game story? I can think of a number of golf journalists I enjoy reading for their insight -- though it is very difficult to make a tournament wrap intriguing to anyone, especially those who saw the tournament.

I thought your point was that longform writing on golf wasn't any good. Now, apparently, the sport has no writing that meets your personal criteria. That's too bad for you, I suppose. I haven't seen your opinion backed up by many here.

I can think of plenty of worthwhile columnists -- Geoff Shackelford is surely one who offers a perspective worth reading, at least in book form.

Oh, and yes, John Kavanagh is a giant in the written word. Now it is too bad that he often communicated like insane philosopher -- one that couldn't write clearly -- and that you had to search anything he wrote for a nugget of insight. Or maybe that's just how I saw it. However, to actually debate John Kavanagh in the same posting as Herbert Warren Wind, Michael Bamberger, John Feinstein and others who have actually contributed to the sport really demeans the later.

And if you're looking for an intellectual's take on golf -- I'd throw Lorne Rubenstein into the mix. Lorne really does think a lot about what he writes, even if I don't agree with some of it.

Tom, I don't quite follow you and I don't pretend to be a terribly deep thinker.  What I do know is Barney gets people thinking, and that without thought, you get garbage like "Tiger then rolled in a five footer for birdie and a two-shot lead, all but locking up his XXth major champoinship."

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

If there's more to this realtively simply point that I haven't thought of yet, well, that's no surprise to me, but it doesn't make the point wrong. 






Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2008, 06:12:31 PM »
I’m surprised noone has mentioned Michael Murphy’s novel up to now, considering some of the discussion group pseudonyms were taken from the book - or was Lloyd Coles’s reference to “Zen” indirectly disqualifying it from the discussion? There was a thread on GITK about a year ago - not many gave it much credence but some raved about it.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31770.70.html


Shivas Irons is a good story, but Murphy then was not a great writer.  He is many things, but the first novel gets too bogged down at the end, changing from fictional tale to thesis.  The conclusion has more interesting characters and locales, but ends up chasing one single kite:  that Shivas is or is not, does or does not.  Are they must reads?  Certainly.  Are they "that good"?  I don't think so.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tim_Cronin

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Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2008, 07:08:19 PM »
In fiction, I could read Wodehouse or Jenkins all day, and sometimes have.
In non-fiction, you can go right down the line and find great writing that was meant for its time and has stood up for all time: Hutchinson, Darwin, Rice, Wind, Jenkins, Verdi to name the internationally known. And there are many known in their cities as sages.
As for "Friday Night Lights," now I have to read it. Kelly's defense makes me think Bissinger, whatever his motives, was describing those hangers-on at high school events who live through the lives of their town's children, caring for the result on the scoreboard rather than the development of the young people playing the game. I see them often in my work.

Verdi - great writing that has stood up for all time?  Are you kidding.  I've read that guy my entire life.  Never said "wow" once.     

Look, the fact is that the primary criterion for golf writing is a default standard:  simply having an interest in the game.  That's a pretty doggone low standard.

Be honest, folks:  Darwin, Rice and Wind wrote when the sport was in a boom time.  THAT is why they're remembered.  They wrote when there was boxing, baseball and golf and that's it.   The writing is merely adequate.  The subject matter simply happened to have been of greater interest at the time, hence the penman-worship.



I'll respectfully disagree and be done with it. As Frank Hannigan once said, "It's easier to criticize someone's wife than someone's golf course." I'll expand that to a definition of writing, great good and bad.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Robert Thompson

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Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2008, 07:14:49 PM »
I'd say if one can't coherently articulate that perspective (re: Kavanagh), then the perspective should be questioned from the start and probably has little value.
That's why I'd take dozens of the golf writers you apparently yawn at over the paving king any day.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

J_ Crisham

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Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2008, 07:22:58 PM »
Tim,   Speaking of great writing, when is the Beverly Bible to be finished. I would like to order my personalized copy as soon as you finish the work of art!     Keep up the good work and don't let the amateur writers get you down. ;)                           Jack

Joe Hancock

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Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2008, 07:48:39 PM »
I'd say if one can't coherently articulate that perspective (re: Kavanagh), then the perspective should be questioned from the start and probably has little value.
That's why I'd take dozens of the golf writers you apparently yawn at over the paving king any day.

You need to try to interject more sarcasm and condescension in your writing. It's very flattering.

It's akin to the political threads that some would call certain politicians by cutsey, derogatory names. As soon as it becomes name calling, all respect is lost.

Joe

" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tim_Cronin

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Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2008, 08:28:14 PM »
Tim,   Speaking of great writing, when is the Beverly Bible to be finished. I would like to order my personalized copy as soon as you finish the work of art!     Keep up the good work and don't let the amateur writers get you down. ;)                           Jack

Hi Jack,
    We're within days of being finished. Paul Richards is looking through pages even as we speak. We've squeezed in as much as we can. I'll let others judge the literary value.
Tim
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Bill_McBride

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Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2008, 08:48:49 PM »
Peripheral to the subject of golf but one of the most interesting reads connecting to the game, is Henry Longhurst's "My Life and Soft Times."

Like an old friend, it can be called upon years from its first reading to cherish and entertain.

Bob

I found that book in a used bookstore in North Berwick, and loved reading it for the rest of a trip.  Longhurst - what a companionable writer!

And great golf taste too - #6 Beacon at Painswick was among his favourite holes in England!  Here's a photo of the hole from behind the green, 200+ yards with wild undulations in front and the Beacon (a signal tower on the ancient Iron Age fort berm) behind.


TEPaul

Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2008, 09:57:17 PM »
"Quote from: Robert Thompson on Today at 07:14:49 pm
I'd say if one can't coherently articulate that perspective (re: Kavanagh), then the perspective should be questioned from the start and probably has little value.



"You really believe that?  That only the thoughts of those who can expertly articulate them are of merit?"


Well, pretty much Dave. How else is anyone going to be able to seriously or intelligently consider what anyone, including John Kavanaugh, means unless his thoughts are relatively well articulated?   

I've been both amused and somewhat confused by John Kavanaugh for years now because he sure does seem to have a real wit with words but every time I try to consider if there is more in his posts and messages than that I never seem to be able to get much farther than that. If you're trying to insinuate that me and most others on here who've come to that conclusion aren't intelligent or sensitive or whatever enough to find more in him than that then I'll disagree with you every time.

I've seen a ton of writers, even some famous ones try to get clever with words and create the illusion for some that there's more to it than that but if anyone really thinks so and they have a brain they do tend to reread, reconsider, truly look into it and analyze it, maybe many times and that is where it all gets vetted in the end, in my book.

As Cirba said about Kavanaugh he probably isn't any Jack Kirouwac. In my opinion, even Jack Kirouwac shouldn't have been considered the modern literary icon some crack him up to be. He was probably a very observant man who was quite troubled who just happened along at a time where he actually said some things that nobody thought a writer with good sense and good taste would say.

To me that's just shock not necessarily intelligence or that interesting. But maybe I'm wrong about that not necessarily for me but for lots of other people.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2008, 10:09:32 PM »
Deciding that there really isn't any good golf writers seems to me to be merely an expression of boredom.  If you can't find anything up to your standards, I reckon you don't find anything up to your standards in just about anything subject in life, thus robbing your ownself of the pleasure to become captivated with another person's views.  Oh sure, there is the use of language and grammar, which is essential to the crafting of good writing.  Well, maybe even grammar isn't as essential as language or vocabulary - just the right word at just the right time.  But, I honestly can't imagine a blanket statement that there isn't any good golf writing, if you are truly interested in golf.

Afterall, what does a good golf story really need?  A contest, a place to take place whether scenic, austere, lovely or historic, a winner, a looser, and if you really want to throw some pizazz into it, a mysterious red head, a gun, a buried treasure, and a little sex. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Sorry, but golf writing really isn't that good. Here's why?
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2008, 12:27:56 AM »
Rich,

You noted that, "Edison didn't invent the light bulb.  He just had a better lawyer than real inventor, Swan..."

He also didn't play golf. But he was a member of the Essex County Country Club.