[Tom_Doak]

Kevin:

For what it's worth, when I was running the GOLF Magazine panel 15-20 years ago, our overseas panelists actually voted for MORE American courses in the top 100 than our American panelists did.  I always suspected that for some it had a lot to do with conditioning, because in those days nearly all good American courses were in better shape than most overseas -- but of course there was no reason given.

I think the UK should have more courses in the list, but perhaps at the expense of other international courses.  I agree with Robert that the top-rated courses in some other countries get too much credit because some panelists want the list to be more diverse internationally ... and to further it I would not agree with his comments on Metropolitan, I'd take any of 100 links courses over Metro.

[Jon Wiggett]

Isn't it juat a case of the following

How many courses are there in the USA?

How many courses are there in the GB&I?

How many courses are there in the rest of the world?

Depending on the ratio one could draw a reasonable conclusion to the question asked.

Matt,

"Put simply - ARE America's golf courses overrated and overranked ?"

is a question requiring an answer (even yes or no would suffice )

"Put simply - America's golf courses are overrated and overranked"

Is a statement requiring no answer but maybe a comment as response.

[Kevin Pallier]

Matt

With respect - as Chris has pointed out I am not making a statement about US courses as my experience on such is very limited. I am trying to elicit responses from those who have more knowledge on such a topic hence the questions.


Andrew

Appreciate your response as I know you have some first hand experience from a mix of the "top echelon" of US and GB&I courses.

I did ask in my initial post if the panel was not so US centric would the purported "bias" towards US courses be the same ? I believe your thoughts are possibly similar to mine on this


Ed

I understand the volume argument but I am talking about "quality". From all that I read -  the very Top Tier of American courses may well deserve their positioning but do the lesser Tiers deserve such a status within the World's Top100 ?

[Matthew Mollica]

I think that American golf courses are some of the best in the country.

As opposed to the non-American courses which are among the best in the country?

 

MM

[Chris Kane]

Matty, in Australian parlance, it appears that Matt's fine joke went straight through to the keeper with respect to our American friends!

[Matthew Delahunty]

Kevin,

The question you should have asked was "Are courses outside the US under-rated?" 

However, I fear that thread would have slipped quickly off the first few screens.

[Jim Nugent]

Isn't it juat a case of the following

How many courses are there in the USA?

How many courses are there in the GB&I?

How many courses are there in the rest of the world?

Depending on the ratio one could draw a reasonable conclusion to the question asked.

From strictly a numerical approach, you are right.  But from the merits of the courses, I don't see why this would matter.  And I thought the point of this thread is the merits. 

To those who think the U.S. is over-represented, I think Matt's question is a good starting point.  Which ones?  Why, and suitable replacements would be interesting too. 

[Robert Thompson]

The Maidstone notion is an interesting one. I played it a month or so ago and really enjoyed it. In fact, I'd say the middle holes were certainly standouts. That said, how it rates ahead of a course like North Berwick, which wasn't even on the world Top 100 in Golf Mag until recently is a real head shaker. Long Island bias?

[Mike_Young]

We would be so much better in golf if course were not rated.  Certain things need to be rated on a local level because that is really all that matters.....say women(speaking of beauty contest), restaurants, housing architecture etc and then and only then should the local/regional winners/favorites be considered on a larger scale......
And IMHO the essential component to be considered world class is the land that comprises the course(not that it can't be FUed)....Ex: I don't see a great piece of land at Engineers .....
So I come back to my best or favorite analogy w/o seeming show van ist.  Women....is Pamela anderson really a good looking women? aint no way?  make up, money/sugar daddy, marketing/PR etc can take ugly women and have them considered world class over a Meryl Streep etc.....that's what has happened with glf course....
Note exception.....Irish women vs Irish golf

[Jonathan Cummings]

There are what, 24,000 courses worldwide of which 16,000 are in the US?  All things equal I would expect roughly 2/3rds of any top 100 world list to be made up of US courses.

JC

[ed_getka]

Kevin,
   There are US courses in the top 100 that I don't even care to play and I will certainly never complete any top 100 list. There are courses below the top tier here that are certainly worthy of discussion, and for every 2nd tier course taken out I am pretty sure it could be replaced with 2 other courses here that are even better. As Matt W pointed out there are some outstanding modern courses that have been built in the last 20 years in the US that could readily displace courses that one would choose to eliminate.
    I think one thing I have noticed in my travels is that a fair number of the top modern courses have more consistently better holes throughout the round than some of the older revered classics.
    I'll try to take time to print out a list of top 100 world courses this evening and make a list of courses to pull out and offer up some replacements.
   

[Anthony Gray]

  The criteria of these rankings always amaze me. How these rankings can leave out courses like Prestwick and North Berwick does not make sense to me.

  Seeing these course ommited dos tell me there is a bias.

  There are other rankings from UK mags that have a better world view.

  Anthony

[Marty Bonnar]

Let me point out a few top world candidates from Ireland that I think are really overrated -- The European Club and Loch Lomond, to name two ones that come quickly to mind.

Matt,
I'm going to let that one go.
best regards,
FBD.

[Ash Towe]

It would be great to hear the opinions of Darius Oliver.  I am sure we are aware of his book on courses outside the US but I believe he has an eqivalent book to be published on American
courses.

[Andrew Summerell]

There are what, 24,000 courses worldwide of which 16,000 are in the US?  All things equal I would expect roughly 2/3rds of any top 100 world list to be made up of US courses.

JC

Only if they were any good though.

It’s like saying the New York Yankees should win the Pennant every year because they come from the city with the most people.

[Matthew Mollica]

It would be great to hear the opinions of Darius Oliver.  I am sure we are aware of his book on courses outside the US but I believe he has an eqivalent book to be published on American
courses.

You ane right Ash, it is in the pipeline, and Darius would be peraps the definitive expert in this field, given how much he's played around the world.

MM

[Mike Wagner]

Matt W,

If you don't mind me asking, what do you do?

[Matt_Ward]

Mike W:

I work as a writer and a consultant to a communications company based in NYC.

Kevin P:

Mea culpa on my part.

Jon W:

In a word -- no !

Tom Doak said it correctly -- some people when they travel elevate places that may be the best of their locale but when really pitted against the best of the best -- those from the USA -- they really don't hold that much water for such a global statement of overall greatness.

Andrew:

You ask why panelists from outside the USA be added?

I don't view things in terms of where people live -- I am a golfer first and foremost. I don't give added weight to my home country or my home state or anything tied to such a territorial priority.

No doubt some people do.

I simply highlight courses no matter where they are located.

I think the issue to consider is what I said previously -- to be #1 in a foreign land is one thing -- to then take that same course(s) and have it lumped in with other "great" courses is an entirely different matter. The USA depth pool is THAT great and for any number of courses that are overrated or have been getting the benefit of votes because of a sacred cow designation based on past votes -- there are other courses that could just as easily take their place.

Robert Mercer Deruntz:

Enjoyed your last post -- extremely detailed and full of candid comments with plenty pf examples to demonstrate a solid comparison and contrast disposition.

The best statement -- place Maidstone in Ireland and it's literally forgotten.

Martin:

My bad -- should have indicated the proper Scottish locale.

[Andrew Summerell]

Andrew:

You ask why panelists from outside the USA be added?

I don't view things in terms of where people live -- I am a golfer first and foremost. I don't give added weight to my home country or my home state or anything tied to such a territorial priority.

No doubt some people do.

I simply highlight courses no matter where they are located.

I think the issue to consider is what I said previously -- to be #1 in a foreign land is one thing -- to then take that same course(s) and have it lumped in with other "great" courses is an entirely different matter. The USA depth pool is THAT great and for any number of courses that are overrated or have been getting the benefit of votes because of a sacred cow designation based on past votes -- there are other courses that could just as easily take their place.

Matt,

At no point did I ever consider panellists having bias & I’m surprised you have. I was highlighting how little many panellists travel. Many of the panellists have probably never been to Australia & many others have probably only done one trip.

No matter what country or course we are talking about, I don’t see how a panellist could ever rank a course that they haven’t seen in the last 5 years (& preferably the last 2 years).

How many panellists would have played all the World Top 100 in the last 5 years?

[Rich Goodale]

 I find that the biggest bias is in favor the Maidstone--locate the course in Ireland and it is not in the same class as Island, Carne, Baltray, Portstewart, and Ross's Point.  

That is an intersting perspective which brings me to ask:

How high would NGLA be rated if it were in Scotland?  I think it would struggle to make the local top 10.

Another question:

Why does Australia have such a dearth of great golf courses?  Based on discussions here I doubt if their top 5 could compete with the top 5 in Ireland (a country 1/50th the size and with 1/5 of the population).

Just wondering....

rfg

[Sean_A]

 I find that the biggest bias is in favor the Maidstone--locate the course in Ireland and it is not in the same class as Island, Carne, Baltray, Portstewart, and Ross's Point.  

That is an intersting perspective which brings me to ask:

How high would NGLA be rated if it were in Scotland?  I think it would struggle to make the local top 10.

Another question:

Why does Australia have such a dearth of great golf courses?  Based on discussions here I doubt if their top 5 could compete with the top 5 in Ireland (a country 1/50th the size and with 1/5 of the population).

Just wondering....

rfg

There are a lot of clubs riding on their charm, location and past/present membership connections to slip into top 100 lists.  My perception of lists is that they suffer from two aspects.  First, if golf is anything its very clubby.  Either you are in or you are out.  Second, its almost like boxing with the challenger trying to take the champ's title.  Once a course is on the list, it takes a clearly better course (or better hyped course) to knock it off and even then there is a good chance that the newbie (or even an oldies without the traditional huzzas) will lose a split decision.  But to be fair, nothing less can be expected.  We are only human.

To answer the question, nearly all the top courses are over-rated so yes, many, many US courses are over-rated.  I keep saying this, but once we are talking about the best X% of courses, the only real difference in their quality is based on our bias, likes, pet peeves etc etc.  These sorts of minor quibbles can mean the difference in being top 100, 300, 400 or however deep one thinks a list of the best courses can go.   

One such bias to look into.  How many courses under 6500 get serious consideration for top 100?  Its an example of modern day bias for length.  In fact, length should only be one factor in the process, but I bet sub-consciously that most folks write off say a 6200 yard course as possibly great (gem status), but not to be taken seriously as top 100 material.  Why is this the case (and it undeniably is) when the vast majority of golfers (and I dare say scratch players) have all they can handle with this length of course if its a clever design (as we would expect if the course is considered great in a gem sense)?  It just shows how pervasive the pro game is on our thinking as to what is great. 

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

some people when they travel elevate places that may be the best of their locale but when really pitted against the best of the best -- those from the USA -- they really don't hold that much water for such a global statement of overall greatness.

A little bias Matt, saying the best of the best are those from the USA

Only if they were any good though.

It’s like saying the New York Yankees should win the Pennant every year because they come from the city with the most people.

Jonathan,

if only people born in the Town/City were allowed to play for them then you might well expect them to win.

[Jason Topp]

Another question:

Why does Australia have such a dearth of great golf courses?  Based on discussions here I doubt if their top 5 could compete with the top 5 in Ireland (a country 1/50th the size and with 1/5 of the population).

Just wondering....

rfg

Rich:

You have been bamboozled by the Australian penchant for a no holds barred fight.

Based on a limited sample of top five courses in each locale  (Kingston Heath, Royal Melbourne West, New South Wales) v.  (Ballybunion, Lahinch) I would choose the Australian courses over their Irish counterparts. 

In fact, I would choose the Australian courses over their Scottish counterparts as well (The Old Course, Dornoch, Prestwick, North Berwick, Turnberry).

[Rich Goodale]

Jason

To paraphrase Lord Geoffrey Howe, arguing with an Australian (or Aussie sycophant ) is like being savaged by a dead sheep.  Nobody disputes that there are 5 or so very good golf courses in Australia, but after that........

Rich

[Lou_Duran]

I gather our international contingent doesn't buy into American exceptionalism, golf course or otherwise  It really comes down to value systems.  I haven't played enough abroad to form a strong opinion on this topic.   But as much as I enjoyed North Berwick, if it truly belongs in the Top 100 worldwide list, I know quite a few American courses that don't make any domestic top anything lists which are superior.  Age, tradition, quirk, seaside location might be important factors for some, but they are far from definitive in my estimation.

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