[Kevin Pallier]

Put simply - are America's golf courses overrated and overranked ?

Golf Magazine (a US publication) which produces it's last biannual Top100 list in 2007 had over half it's courses from the USA whereas for example: Britain and Ireland could only produce a quarter of the World's best courses ? (52% of the list was from the USA whereas GB&I accounted for 27%)

On closer inspection - the differential is greater in the Top50 = 29 US courses to 13 from GB&I

The Top20 was split much closer 10 and 7 courses respectively.

So in essance - of the courses outside the Top20 - the US outranks the GB&I courses by roughly 2 to 1.

Are the golf courses really that good ? or could possible objectivity issues be in play ? If the panel was non US-centric would the spread be the same ?

I must confess that my experience of American golf courses is very limited but of those US based GCAers who have travelled overseas or those who have travelled to the US and played there are the US courses really that good ?

[TX Golf]

I'm not sure of the number of courses in each country but there are obviously many many more courses in the US than GB... If there is a 2-1 ratio in courses in the top 100, and more than twice as many courses in the US than GB, you could argue that GB is actually favored, or just that the courses are better.

[Matt_Ward]

Kevin:

With all due respect -- you start a thread with the tagline "Are USA golf courses overrated" and then announce that you yourself have a "very limited" experience with American courses.

I can't answer in broad sweeping generalities so either you or others would have to ID those American courses that people feel are overrated rather than the broad brush approach you are suggesting. Then once the American courses are ID as being overrated - I'd have to see what the replacements would be.

Candidly, there are a number of superior new American courses -- those opened since 1990 that are not listed on any top 100 USA or world poll but are frankly UNDERRATED in my mind.

[Chris Kane]

With all due respect -- you start a thread with the tagline "Are USA golf courses overrated" and then announce that you yourself have a "very limited" experience with American courses.

Matt, with all due respect, Kevin has asked a question, not made a statement.  He is trying to learn something from people who do have experience with courses on both sides of the pond -  I think its a very good question.

Instead of tearing him down, you could confine your response to answering the question.

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

With all due respect, did you really read what I asked in its entirety or did you simply cherry pick two sentences?

This silly thing about your erroneous conclusion of me "tearing him down" is its utterly unfounded.

I answered his original statement which I found to be poorly framed in the most general of terms.

How bout people say the names of specific courses in America rather than the broad approach with its simplistic premise that America in general is the home of overrated courses.

I'll be happy to answer, with all due respect, when people point out those courses that are overrated -- and then tell me which ones overseas are being left out or are rated too low.

I also mentioned -- in the event you missed it -- that there are quite few post 1990 American courses that are not even mentioned for a top 100 world rating but would have plenty of juice to be considered for an overall such list.

[Chris Kane]

I answered his original statement which I found to be poorly framed in the most general of terms.

Show me where his original post contained a statement.

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

The opening line posted begs those reading this thread that USA courses are overrated.

"Put simply - are America's golf courses overrated and overranked ?"

Now, let me ask you something - did you read my entire original post or did you simply cherry pick off two sentences?

As an FYI -- I've retyped it twice so you should not have a hard time finding it if you bother to read it in its entirety.

[Andrew Summerell]

Having play a lot in America & a lot throughout the British Isles, but coming from Australia I would suggest that it is the 2nd & 3rd tier American courses that are overrated. By 2nd & 3rd tier I mean courses that aren’t recognised as traditional or modern classics, but have a strong local reputation, normally accompanied by expensive membership costs or high green fees.

The American courses I have played that regularly rate within the World Top 100 have been a true joy to play & deserve their status & positioning on the various lists. Many of the other American courses (2nd & 3rd tier) that I have played have generally been in extremely good condition, but architecturally boring & similar to each other.

The one thing that has always amazed me is the strength of the 2nd & 3rd tiers courses in the British Isles, especially in England. Many of these courses I would consider to be humble or quaint in that they don’t promote themselves to be something they are not, yet they are architecturally sound, extremely fun & if I had to play on a weekly basis I wouldn’t mind.

Kevin,

Don’t forget you are talking about an American magazine with mostly American readers & a large number of their ranking panel based in America. It’s only reasonable that there would be a slight bias.

One game I often play is to guess where a particular American course would rate if it was in Newcastle (Australia), where hardly any American ranking panellist ever venture. Come to think of it, hardly any Australian panellists get there either.

[Chris Kane]

Matt, I now know why education is such a hot issue during Presidential campaigns - it appears that they don't teach you what a question mark means!

It was a question, not a statement - Kevin was even honest enough to make very clear that he doesn't have sufficient experience of American courses to know the answer.  He is an intelligent man - why would he make a statement then discredit himself six lines down?  

I haven't cherry picked anything.  You overreacted by erroneously assuming that Kevin was making a statement rather than asking a question.  

[Mike_Young]

I think over rated might be the wrong term.....more pretentious fits better IMHO.....mke

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

Since we are on the subject of reading things correctly -- I'll ask you AGAIN did you bother to read my entire post?

One other thing -- I never questioned his intelligence. Don't know if I can expand that further to others -- know what I mean. By the way -- my last comment -- was a statement.

[Carl Nichols]

Chris:
There are such things as rhetorical questions.  Until your post, a few of Kevin's struck me as such.  

[Matt_Cohn]

I think that American golf courses are some of the best in the country.

Are there some good non-American rankings to which we can compare Golf Magazine's?

[Andrew Summerell]

I can't answer in broad sweeping generalities so either you or others would have to ID those American courses that people feel are overrated rather than the broad brush approach you are suggesting. Then once the American courses are ID as being overrated - I'd have to see what the replacements would be.

matt,

In thinking through courses from the Top 100 that I've played & been underwhelmed by, the stand out for me would be Harbour Town. I've played it a few times & walked it a couple of time during a tournament & it is one course that I don't believe deserves its spot in the world Top 100.

I'm not saying it's a bad course, but I believe it's location (which, of course can't be changed) & its tournament have promoted it to higher station.

[ed_getka]

Kevin,
   Good to see you posting. I am now even farther from Australia than when we met. I think from the small sampling of what I have seen in Scotland, Australia, and New Zealand as compared to the US offerings I would think that the sheer volume of courses here would lend itself to the rankings seen as someone pointed out.
   One thing that will effect this question is just what it is that one values in a golf course. Having been to Australia (once) and New Zealand (once) I know I have seen the courses I most desired to see. In the US and the UK I have a longer list of courses I would like to see. Now this could just be pure ignorance on my part as I am certainly not an authority, not even close, on Australia/NZ golf.
   Courses I most want to see in UK: Machrihanish, Prestwick, Rye, St Enodoc, Perranporth, and at least a couple of dozen more.
    Ireland: at least 6-10, Ballybunion, Royal County Down, etc..
     US: Myopia, Kiawah Ocean, Cuscowilla, Shinnecock, Pinehurst, Chicago GC, Camargo, Monroe CC, Newport CC, Pine Valley, Seminole, Longshadow, Sebonack, Ballyneal, Black Mesa, Chambers Bay, etc... I could list at least a couple dozen more that I have already played.
    I think there is a bit more depth here in the US, but I could certainly be wrong. There are many here who are much more well-travelled than I that I would love to hear from.
    Thinking about it a bit more, I am thinking the best way to determine this is to think of yourself as a golfer with a lot of interest in and knowledge of golf course architecture (assume somehow this information is downloaded into your brain), but that you have never seen ANY of the courses that seem most intriguing to you. What would be your list of courses that you want to see?
    One thing that certainly skews the rankings of courses is the emphasis placed on major championship golf courses. Given that 3 of 4 majors are played in the US it is pretty natural that most ranking lists would be weighted with US courses. I know my personal list would look much different because I am not so enamored of championship courses. Having seen me play, you know why.
   Have a great summer down there.

[Chris Kane]

Carl, in my view the final paragraph rules them out as rhetorical questions - why would anyone ask a rhetorical question when they've made it clear that they aren't in a position to judge the issue?

On a website like this (with the ever-present danger of Pat Mucci playing amateur lawyer), no-one in their right mind would make a statement which they aren't in a position to back up. That's why Kevin prudently chose to ask a question instead!

Yes Matt, I did read your entire post.  You chose to tear down a statement which was never made.  I never suggested that you didn't answer the question (or statement, as you've characterised it).  What I said was that you should have confined your response to answering the question.

[Nicholas Coppolo]

Why so defensive?!!!

I don't feel Kevin needed to be specific on what courses he is questioning.  General discussions are no less valid than specific ones, especially when they answer an intentionally general question. 

If he posted specific courses, the discussion would never come to fruition, it would immediately be bogged down in a stalemate (which happens too often IMHO) on the merits of each individual course in question.

I agree entirely with Andrew's post and have had identical impressions.

[Matt_Ward]

Andrew:

You raise a number of key points.

Let me point out a few top world candidates from Ireland that I think are really overrated -- The European Club and Loch Lomond, to name two ones that come quickly to mind. Loch Lomond is only present in my mind, because of the grandiose facilities - the course is not that special in my mind to rate such high praise.

Andrew, if I dropped Harbour Town out -- it would be easy for me to add a number of newer courses that get no world mention -- what are they? Take your pick -- The Kingsley Club is one, Black Mesa is another -- ditto the likes of Sebonack or even Doak's recent effort at Rock Creek which can't be rated just yet because it opened beyond the article's cut-off. The depth of American courses is quite thick -- and a number of them that have opened post 1990 would be more than able to fill in those that are overrated.

Keep in mind, that courses from the USA that could also get tossed include the following:

Congressional - Long and difficult but I'd rather see a place like Kingsley

East Lake - Give me a place like Olde Kinderhook in the Rees Jones portfolio or even his father's efforts at Peachtree.

Scioto - I can't speak to the revised Nicklaus / Hurdzan work but the course I played from a number of years ago was exactly as Doak mentioned in CG

Somerset Hills - people love it but I think there's two suitable replacements within NJ that get little attention -- Montclair and Forsgate

Shadow Creek - Wolf Creek in Mesquite offers more about the golf architecture tied to holes rather than just an engineering story on how a course got built.

Quaker Ridge -- really that good at #64 ? Substitute a place like Plainfield.

Medinah #3 -- frankly I would rather play a more compelling piece of architecture like HV in the greater Phila area.

Baltusrol / Lower -- is it really rated for the architecture or for its role as major championship host? The work that Hanse and Bahto are now completing at Essex County CC is more unique and exciting than what you get from the Lower.

People beat on Tom Fazio on this site but his efforts at a few places could likely spur considertion -- I know of the favorable comments people have made of The Alotian Club in AR -- I like what he did with Glenwild in UT or even Victoria National in IN.
 
There are also other American architects whose contributions don't get much attention not because they aren't good but because people put more weight on those layouts they are most familiar with. Hosting big time events likely has helped such places as Baltusrol, Congressional and East Lake.

One last thing -- just because a foreign course is #1 in its own country -- or even a top five placement -- that may be true for that PARTICULAR country but when you expand that further out and say it now must be included into a WORLD listing that's quite another matter.

[Andrew Summerell]

Matt,

I pretty much agree with you on the courses you have selected & I actually think the percentages are about right regarding the amount of U.S. courses versus the British Isles & Ireland. I imagine America spends the most on course building & development, as well as have more courses than anywhere else. You also have more players than anywhere else & a broader range of players wanting different things from their golf courses. Both Kingsley & BM are both quality architecture (I haven’t seen Sebonack or Rock Creek) & are very definitely worth inclusion at some point, but courses do build up an aura around them for various reasons that often keep them in the lists longer than they should be.

The other issue is that it’s hard to find panellists that see enough courses on a regular basis. I’ve even heard of panellists that have ranked courses they haven’t even seen. I’m fortunate enough to be in my early 40’s & semi-retired, and have travelled a lot (& still do) over the years playing & walking different courses merely because I have a love of golf course architecture. Most panellist aren’t in the position I am & couldn’t be expected to see as many courses.

One thing I would like to see is American publications installing more panellists from outside America & GB&I.

[Jim Nugent]

I've seen several Internet sources say there are 16,000 to 17,000 golf courses in the U.S.  Around 6000 in Europe, which includes GB&I.  If you go strictly on number of courses -- I don't -- GB&I are over-represented.  

I also remember counting courses, by nation, on a World's Best 100 list from a British golf magazine.  Or maybe it was Australian.  It had the same overall ratio as Golf Mag.  

Am I right that the U.S. has a greater variety, of types of courses, than GB&I?  The U.S. is so much bigger, with more geographical diversity: all of Great Britain just about fits into the State of Oregon.  The U.S. also has nearly five times as much population.

 

[Lloyd_Cole]

Please don't take this too seriously, just a thought -
There is much more land in N. America, it's true, but there is much less linksland! Infinitely less, arguably.

[C. Sturges]

I am showing no respect!

I think it is really very challenging to compare.  In the US so much is based on conditioning and the far factor, ie. blind shots.  While so many courses globally do not have the same conditions.  Personally more of my favorite courses are outside the US, and up to a certain point do not care about the condition of the course.

Today I played a course in Arizona that was so green and lush it was terrible in my mind for condition.  There should have been dry spots and it should have been playing firm and fast.  I could not imagine a course like this outside the US.

I also believe many Americans(not on this site) would not understand how to play or why you would want to play many courses overseas.

So yes I think most US courses are overated compared to the great courses all over the world.

chris

ps sorry about misspelling, how do you spell check these?

[Lloyd_Cole]

Today I played a course in Arizona that was so green and lush it was terrible in my mind for condition.  There should have been dry spots and it should have been playing firm and fast.  I could not imagine a course like this outside the US.

C

I think this is where we aliens tend to get carried away and maybe lose the plot. Yes, this type of thing is heinous, but we're talking here about the Best of American golf, not the worst. Merion, Pine Valley, etc do not strive for soft green, as I understand it - they want firm green, with a few brown bits here and there. As to the rest of the country and the verdant green - we can blame that on Augusta and Colour TV. Now if the Masters had been held at Shinnecock... there's a nice bedtime thought.

[C. Sturges]

Lloyd,

Good point! 

The course I played was not Americas best, but it shows one of our problems, a soggy course in the desert.  And this is what most Americans want, or are atleast willing to pay $150+ for a round.  Luckily I paid $0 + drinks.

Chris

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I have now played 80 of the Golf Magazine's World List and have found both more overated and underated courses in the US because of the quantity of world class courses.  I find that the biggest bias is in favor the Maidstone--locate the course in Ireland and it is not in the same class as Island, Carne, Baltray, Portstewart, and Ross's Point.  To give the list a world flavor, Durban is a 5 hole course.  There is a lot of mediocrity between the 4th and 14th.  Though not a great course, Royal Durban was at least consistent.  I have not played the course along the ocean in Cape Town, but South Africa has a lot of very good, but I never played anything great when I had a SA PGA card in 1996.  Though biased, Engineers is truely top 50 world class.  In Australia, I thought Metropolitan and Penninsula were better than some US world selections.  I would put Fox Chapel on the list over Shoreacres.  The more I play Rustic Canyon, the more greatness seems to be revealed.

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