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Carl Nichols

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Thoughts on a weekend in Scottsdale
« on: December 06, 2008, 09:12:05 AM »
I recently spent a three-day weekend in the Scottsdale area.  We were scheduled to play Desert Forest Friday afternoon, We-Ko-Pa Saguaro (morning) and Cholla (afternoon) on Saturday, and then Vista Verde on Sunday.  We only got in 9 holes at Cholla, however, because it was very slow – and so we ended up jumping back over to play a full 18 on Saguaro at dusk.  So with the caveat that we played only the front 9 at Cholla, in contrast to 36 at Saguaro, I would rank the 4 courses as follows:  Desert Forest; Saguaro; Vista Verde; and Cholla.  [My buddy would rank them Saguaro, DF, VV, Cholla]

Why Desert Forest #1?  To start with, I thought that it had an artistic quality to how the green sites fit within the land, the trees, and the background mountains—really beautiful stuff—and that, unlike other desert courses, it felt really natural.  The trees/shrubs/bushes are also very mature, plus there are very few houses and it’s an easy walk.  All in all, a great setting.  (The saucer-shaped bunkers, which I’m not usually a big fan of, also seem to fit in.)

But what about the golf?   I thought the greens and green sites were fantastic, and with lots of variety—some elevated, some not; some heavily bunkered, some not; some with tons of contours, some not.   There were lots of risk-reward options, holes that (if you wanted to hit driver) required you to work the ball to stay in the fairway, great contours in the fairways, and lots of strategic choices—like a few I try to show below.  I’ve seen comments that DF is overly penal off the tee, but it didn’t seem that way to me, though that may have been as a result of the overseeding; it certainly wasn’t playing soft, but the guys in the pro shop told me that a lot of the year the course plays incredibly F&F, and it’s tough to keep the ball in the fairway.  I also had a good day off the tee.

A few sample pictures (taken in the middle of the day, so not great) and accompanying comments.  I hope to post about Vista Verde in the future.

#1 Green – this shot barely missed the green



#2 – ideal tee shot works right to left



#7 – split fairway; aggressive play is right, leaving a much shorter 2nd



#11 – 580 yard par 5.  Although the fairways slopes left, being right is the much better play because of the tree short of the green on the left.  View from left side.



View from right side.



Beautiful hole





As I posted in another thread, this tree on the par 5 16th is both beautiful and strategically important –the best layup is past and to the left of the tree (last picture), but that requires the player to challenge the tree.





From the right side



From the left side, past the tree



Great undulations on 18.






« Last Edit: December 06, 2008, 10:01:53 AM by Carl Nichols »

Andy Troeger

Re: Thoughts on a weekend in Scottsdale
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2008, 07:11:43 PM »
Carl,
Thanks for posting and glad you enjoyed the trip. I haven't played Cholla yet, so I'll be interested to see it for myself one of these days.

Carl Nichols

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Re: Thoughts on a weekend in Scottsdale
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2008, 08:10:27 PM »
Andy:
Thanks for your help in planning the trip.  As for Cholla, since I only played the front nine it would be foolish of me to give an overall assessment -- though if the whole course is like the front, I would say that it's overrated by at least some mags.

Rick Sides

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Re: Thoughts on a weekend in Scottsdale
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2008, 08:15:41 PM »
Does Desert Forest allow outside play or is it private?

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Thoughts on a weekend in Scottsdale
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2008, 08:57:28 PM »
Desert Forest is private.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Carl Nichols

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Re: Thoughts on a weekend in Scottsdale
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2008, 09:47:28 PM »
It's private, but they were extremely accommodating with a call from my pro.  In fact, the people at DF were incredibly nice and helpful.

cary lichtenstein

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Re: Thoughts on a weekend in Scottsdale
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2008, 10:03:48 PM »
Bette and I found Desert Forest to not be as good as its hype.

Not a go back to.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Carl Nichols

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Re: Thoughts on a weekend in Scottsdale
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2008, 10:14:02 PM »
Cary--
I had seen your post to that effect.  I had the opposite reaction -- I liked it more than I was expecting from the pictures I had seen in prior threads.  What time of year were you there?  It sounds like it might play really tight when it's firm.   

Andy Troeger

Re: Thoughts on a weekend in Scottsdale
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2008, 10:39:04 PM »
Cary--
I had seen your post to that effect.  I had the opposite reaction -- I liked it more than I was expecting from the pictures I had seen in prior threads.  What time of year were you there?  It sounds like it might play really tight when it's firm.   

It sure seemed narrow to me as I've said before--I won't dwell on it. There's a lot of good stuff between the desert, I just wished there was more of it (as in stuff between the desert). I'm not the straightest driver of the ball though, so perhaps DF is a course that I'd appreciate more with more plays or if I was a better driver of the ball.

Dave Givnish

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Re: Thoughts on a weekend in Scottsdale
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2008, 09:11:48 AM »
Carl -

I'm glad that you enjoyed DF.  Playing in the afternoon at this time of the year is about as good as it gets when the animals start to come out of the desert and the sun sets.  I hope that you went down to Harold's for a drink after.  How did you do on #3?  It's our shortest par 5.

We-ko-pa might be a victim of their success with their slow play.  Cholla seems to play more slowly than Saguaro for some reason - maybe they marshal Saguaro because it doesn't seem like they do anything on Cholla.  3 hours for a nine is painful wherever you play.

Andy - play the gold tees the next time you come out to DF.  The landing areas are bigger from there. 

Dave



Andy Troeger

Re: Thoughts on a weekend in Scottsdale
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2008, 09:26:48 PM »
Dave,
I played the golds the first time...next time I'm moving up! We played "Weiskopf" tees on a couple holes too--I think that might have part of my frustration. #17 green was designed for a medium iron, not a fairway wood or whatever was required from the back. Nothing wrong with the hole other than me playing the wrong tee.

I did par your shortest par five  ;D

Carl Nichols

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Re: Thoughts on a weekend in Scottsdale
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2008, 09:45:36 PM »
Dave, funny you say that; I made the same score on #3 as I did on #7 -- 4.  As for Harold's, I'm not sure if that's the name of the bar in the clubhouse, but I certainly had a few beers there--and a couple of pieces of beef jerky.  First time I've ever seen a huge jar of beef jerky at the bar of a private course! 

Dave Givnish

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Re: Thoughts on a weekend in Scottsdale
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2008, 08:42:02 AM »
Andy

PM me when you're coming to town.  It may help you to have a member "caddy".

There is a reason we don't put markers on those 5 tees that Weiskopf added.  #3 is probably a more severe shot than #17.  #17 green is big enough and angled to accept a 4- or 5-iron shot.  Holding #3 from the back tee is pretty difficult. 

What I wonder is if we did the same exercise that Weiskopf did to add yardage, where would you do it?

Carl -

Harold's is a bar in Cave Creek that gives you a good feel for Arizona before the fru-fru bars took over. As for our bar - jerky and Beck's go together pretty well, don't you think?

Dave




Andy Troeger

Re: Thoughts on a weekend in Scottsdale
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2008, 09:30:42 AM »
Dave,
I didn't hit a very good shot on #3, but I'd tend to agree that was another one from the back where I was hitting and hoping for the best. I don't think the course really needs more yardage than the 6700 yard set. It belongs in the category with Prairie Dunes and Crystal Downs in being courses where the difficulty doesn't come from length. I imagine for a pro who would want the extra distance, that they hit it so far that any tee is fair game for them. I was playing with one of your assistants and a guy playing on a mini-tour, so I probably should have balked and moved up. So it goes...won't make that mistake again.

Richard Boult

Re: Thoughts on a weekend in Scottsdale
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2008, 11:09:33 AM »

Tom Yost

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Re: Thoughts on a weekend in Scottsdale
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2008, 12:21:59 PM »
... As for our bar - jerky and Beck's go together pretty well, don't you think?

Sounds like my kinda place!

Dave - Is the fairway overseed a recent thing at DF?   I thought I remembered some discussions where they were one of the few that let the fairways go dormant.


Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Thoughts on a weekend in Scottsdale
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2008, 12:56:06 PM »
Dave,

When I played DF a few years ago, the beef jerky was not available. How does it compare with the beef jerky at Mirabel?
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Dave Givnish

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Re: Thoughts on a weekend in Scottsdale
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2008, 03:44:47 PM »
Steve and Tom -

I understand that Mirabel's jerky is made by their chef.  I think that we use Costco's finest.  It still tastes good with a beer.

Tom -

This is the 3rd winter that DF has overseeded.  The plan was to seed for three years and rest one.  We plan to go dormant next winter.  I'm looking forward to it as the course plays much faster and is harder to score on when dormant.  The desert becomes the "second cut" instead of the rough. I suspect that we will overseed the green surrounds to some extent.

Over the last few summers, Riviera has been interseeded with the other hybrid Bermudas on a good deal of the course.  This seems to compete better with the rye.  It is also supposed to stay dormant a shorter length of time.  I guess we'll see how it works.

Dave

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