Can any "Best new courses" make the top 100?

[Joel_Stewart]

Can any of the best new courses make the top 100 in the US?   I've attached a list of the bottom 10 which you could assume would have to be eliminated.  Which one?


90. HUDSON NATIONAL G.C. 6,955 70 61.31
(90) Croton-on-Hudson, N.Y.—Tom Fazio (1996)   
91. SAGE VALLEY G.C 7,331 72 61.30
(78) Graniteville, S.C./Tom Fazio (2001)   
92. SYCAMORE HILLS G.C. 7,240 72 61.29
(New) Fort Wayne, Ind./Jack Nicklaus (1989)   
93. HARBOUR TOWN G. LINKS  6,973 71 61.19
(97) Hilton Head Island—Pete Dye & Jack Nicklaus (1969)   
94. CANTERBURY G.C. 6,942 72 61.12
(86) Beachwood, Ohio/Herbert Strong (1922)   
95. THE PRESERVE G.C. 7,067 72 61.00
(83) Carmel, Calif./Tom Fazio, J. Michael Poellot & Sandy Tatum (2000)   
96. THE VALLEY CLUB OF MONTECITO 6,612 72 60.99
(69) Santa Barbara, Calif./Alister Mackenzie & Robert Hunter (1929)   
97. THE HOMESTEAD (Cascades)  6,679 70 60.98
(75) Hot Springs, Va./William Flynn (1923)   
98. KIAWAH ISLAND CLUB (Cassique)  7,248 72 60.96
(New) Kiawah Island, S.C./Tom Watson (2000)   
99. PETE DYE G.C. 7,248 72 60.94
(91) Bridgeport, W.Va./Pete Dye (1994)   
100. HAWKS RIDGE G.C. 7,385 72 60.93
(81) Ball Ground, Ga./Bob Cupp (1999)Ball Ground, Ga./Bob Cupp (1999)

[Joel_Stewart]

Here is the list of the best new.  Again I question if any of these can break into the top 100.


Best New Public

1. Chambers Bay- University Place, WASH.
2. PGA G.C. Coyote Springs- Coyote Springs, NEV.
3. Cougar Canyon G. Links- Trinidad, COLO.
4. Four Mile Ranch G.C.- Canon City, COLO.
5. Heritage Plantation Golf and C.C.- Laurel Hill, FLA.
6. Emerald Falls G.C.- Broken Arrow, OKLA.
7. Sevillano Links- Corning, CALIF.
8. Cottonwood Hills G.C.- Hutchinson, KAN.
9. Butterfield Trail G.C.- El Paso, TX.
10. Heritage Hill G.C.- Shepherdsville, KY.

Best New Private:

1. Gozzer Ranch G. and Lake C.- Harrison, IDAHO
2. The C. at Spanish Peaks- Big Sky, MONT.
3. Painted Valley Course- Park City, UTAH
4. The Ritz-Carlton G.C., Creighton Farms- Aldie, VA.
5. Juliette Falls G. & Spa C.- Dunnellon, FLA.
6. TPC San Francisco Bay at Stonebrae- Hayward, CALIF.
7. Sugarloaf Mountain G. & Town C.- Minneola, FLA.
8. Adam's Mountain C.C.- Eagle, COLO.
9. The Creek C. at Reynolds Plantation- Greensboro, GA.
10. The G.C. at Ravenna- Littleton, COLO.

Best Remodel:

1. Saucon Valley C.C. (Old)- Bethlehem, PA.
2. Sleepy Hollow C.C.- Scarborough, N.Y.
3. Haig Point C. (Calibogue)- Daufuskie Island, S.C.
4. Omaha C.C.- Omaha, NEB.
5. Montesoro G. and Social C.- Borrego Springs, CALIF.
6. Sedgefield C.C.- Greensboro, N.C.
7. Hawk's Nest G.C.- Vero Beach, FLA.
8. Cardinal G. & C.C.- Greensboro, N.C.
9. Sailfish Point G.C.- Stuart, FLA.
10. Mayacoo Lakes C.C.- West Palm Beach, FLA

[John Kirk]

Joel,

The only one I've played is Chambers Bay.  Chambers Bay is a very good golf course, with a superb set of par fours.  I can see Chambers Bay in the Golf Digest top 100.

[John Moore II]

Yeah, based on what I have heard about Chambers Bay, it will likely be in the top 100. It is all ready in the top 100 modern from Golfweek. The rest I can't really comment about, though Rock Creek is absent from the list, and from all accounts, it is downright awesome.

[Ryan Farrow]

Joel, I'd put Rock Creek in the top 10 or so.  Whatever #10 is on whatever list you choose, I probably would rather play Rock Creek.

David, now tell me how someone can say there are 3 new private courses this year that they would rather play instead of Rock Creek. And then I hear you say I would rather Play Rock Creek than any of the 3 top golf courses in the country. (old thread, misquoting for dramatic effect)

Who sounds crazy now? Golf Magazine, or you?

[Rob Rigg]

Ryan,

The results would have been even more interesting if GM had blended public and private because then Tetherow (as New Course of the Year) would be in front of RCCC as well (at a minimum, not sure about Pound Ridge and the others)

[mark chalfant]

 I much prefer Sleepy Hollow over both  Hudson National and Cascades. I also feel that TPC at  Stonebrae  is as good as Hudson Natl.. I have not played Creighton Farms but it looks very good

Does anyone think that Creighton farms or Sugarloaf are near top  100 ?

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

Keep this in mind -- Digest, just like other mags, strives to protect the sacred cows. Think about how they included "tradition" and "walkability" as key component issues -- they were simply trying to protect the status quo when you had a "new" place like Shadow Creek explode into the mix with its top ten placement a number of years ago.

You also have a number of dead weight raters who simply keep spitting out numbers that reinforce the status quo. Heaven forbid they ventured off the beaten track and played some of the very exciting designs that are present.

Are there best new courses capable in being in a top 100?  Sure.

Rock Creek, as Dave mentioned, wasn't listed for consideration but really is "new" and would make my personal top 100. I'd also say a place like Four Mile Ranch -- the new Engh layout in CO -- offers some very unique and fun architecture that deserves serious attention.

[Joel_Stewart]

Keep this in mind -- Digest, just like other mags, strives to protect the sacred cows. Think about how they included "tradition" and "walkability" as key component issues

Am I wrong but GD eliminated tradition for those very reasons.   Ron Whitten believed that classics should have some protection but GD over ruled him and took it away.  Furthermore, GD doesn't have any vested interest in any course being in the top 100 so I'm not sure I agree with your premise.

As far as the 90-100 courses go, I see only The Preserve as being over rated and possibly being knocked out by possibly Chambers Bay.   Sage Valley, Cassique and possibly Hawks Ridge may also be vulnerable but I haven't played them.  You also have a course like Pasatiempo which is knocking on the door.

[Andy Troeger]

Joel,
You know as well as any of us that its not ONLY the bottom ten in danger of falling out. For purposes of this exercise anything in the bottom thirty is probably close enough statistically that changes could bump them. I agree that it seems like there's some strong courses in that bottom 10--Sycamore Hills could get the bump, Harbour Town to me should be a bit higher. Homestead and PDGC are ones I really want to see--they're much higher on my priority list than they are on GD's actual list.

The only new course I've seen that has any chance IMO is Chambers Bay, and it should be top 50. I would expect some of the more recent "Best New" winners like The Alotian should make a top 100 entry this time around as well. Not sure if The Concession is at that level but hope to see it soon.

[PCCraig]

Cassique is very good and is worthy of a 90-100 ranking. I wouldn't vote for much higher, but it is good.

From what I read and see on here Chambers Bay should be on the top 100.

[Tom Huckaby]

Dave:

I have begun negotiations toward the mortgaging of my marital future that will be required such that I can go see Rock Creek next year.

If it is not truly great, I WILL kill you.

Because I am basing this - to the exclusion of several other things I might otherwise do, and at the pain of months of honeydos, guilt, etc. - on YOUR TAKE.  YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.  Though most have praised it, some quite highly, no one has come in and praised it as highly as you.  Now Golf Mag "only" puts it as #4 best new... high praise for sure, but obviously far short of your statements.

No pressure man.  And you have many months to prepare hiding places.  I doubt you will need them though.  I do trust you.

BTW no course I have seen in any of these best new lists has a prayer of making Top 100 overall. But I haven't seen any of the ones at the top of the lists.
TH

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

Dave is spot on / re: Rock Creek. Arguably, among all the Doak courses in the USA -- save for Sebonack IMHO, it's the best he's produced. Yes, I am aware all those Pac Dunes fans are shaking their head and asking how can that be?

The course would be even greater if an ocean were next to it. Clearly, a course that should be up for such consideration -- once a number of the other sacred cows are bumped -- which should have been done years ago.

Joel:

That's true -- but the idea that some person (e.g. Whitten) had to "protect" courses was really a sad commentary on the raters Digest had at that time. If you want info from people then you need to go with it. I don't doubt for a minute the elevation of Shadow Creek to top ten overall status happened for plenty of other reasons not tied to its overall "compelling" architecture.

Joel, let me refresh your memory when you say Digest doesn't "have any vested interest in any course being in the top 100" -- if you recall a number of years ago Digest saw fit to "demote" Augusta National (long before Hootie when it should have done so because of the silly post-Tiger changes that he overreacted to in implementing) from its top ten and bumped it "down" to a second ten status. Two years later they predictably bumper "up" ANGC as some sort of resurrection course piece.

I mention this because creating magazine generated "headlines" certainly caused a bit of commotion when the demotion happened and likely spiked interest -- good or bad -- for the magazine.

There's one other thing you left out -- when you have a large pool of people throwing forward numbers the issue is less of a Shadow Creek emerging as it did -- but the idea that all of the sacred cows are indeed sacred and can NEVER be demoted. Too many people hold the line and provide the SAME, or very close to them, numbers year after year after year.

The real commentary is that national consensus ratings now have less credibility than they did years ago -- the information being shared on this site proves that point.

Changing subjects ...

The issue for many "new" courses is can they sustain themselves after the initial pomp and circumstance.

Few can.

But the mindset needs to be there for those that are clearly deserving.

 

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

I don't think those old results were a sad commentary on the raters for DIGEST.  I think they were a sad commentary on the magazine's DEFINITION of a great course, the numbers they asked for to add up what's a great course or not.  There has always been too much emphasis on conditioning and scenery, and the definition of "shot values" has always been so vague that half the panelists can't understand it. 

Add 'em up and what you've got is a pile of nothing ... the only reason the results turned out anywhere close to right is because the panelists know they're supposed to give high marks to Pine Valley, Cypress Point, et al. regardless of the definitions they are given.

All the numbers are just an attempt to make a subjective exercise look more objective and precise ... they even use the word "objective" in their write-up most years.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

We can lay responsibility on a host of groups here. No doubt the magazine changed the tables whenever it felt obliged to do so. You also have raters who were asked to come on board who simply mailed in the same tired results again and again.

Adding more people to the mix didn't add more quality information coming back from the field. The magazine is also stubborn in believing that all raters are equal in terms of what they provide through their assessments.

So, yeah, you're right -- the bulk of the responsibility lies at the foot of the magazine itself.

My point, which I don't think you realize, is that too many of the sacred cows -- I'm not speaking about PV or CP -- are simply hanging in because of past beliefe that THEY MUST ALWAYS be there. There are a number of superior new courses that have come onto to the scene since 1990 that can certainly make a solid case for inclusion into the top 100 -- and you're right -- the domain of conditioning and scenery needs to be tempered -- those elements need to be seen as secondary factors -- not co-equals.

Last item on shot values -- I think a new defnition can certainly be added. But, I still believe at the core of any architectural design is how the layout reacts to shots played. We are not simply reviewing and assessing a layout because it has the compelling "look" -- the "how it plays" dimension is for me the point where the art and the game come together.

[Sean Leary]

Huck:

Dave is spot on / re: Rock Creek. Arguably, among all the Doak courses in the USA -- save for Sebonack IMHO, it's the best he's produced. Yes, I am aware all those Pac Dunes fans are shaking their head and asking how can that be?

Clearly better than Ballyneal? Really?

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt:

Best Doak course, save for Sebonack, is NOT what Dave said.

He called it the #1 course in this land, if not the world.

Still supporting his position?

Sean - RCCC will hopefully be added on to another trip we've discussed.  Weird geography for sure, but methinks I will get ONE trip far away from home next year.

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

You asked Dave if others have praised Rock Creek highly ?

Well, I just did with my previous post.

The course is well done -- and if people take the time (you included as well as others) than it has a very good shot at being included among the top 100. It's there for me -- now.

Sean:

I really like Ballyneal too -- would place it at the top of my personal favorites but I have to say that Rock Creek offers the more complete and diverse grouping of par-4 holes I have played from a Doak-USA based course -- again with the possible exception w Sebonack.

On the par-3 front Ballyneal sports the edge -- albeit a close one. On the par-5 front I see it as a toss-up.

The green contours -- that includes the surroundings and all the related shots / pitches one would need to play is also quite close.

To be fair -- I'd like to play Ballyneal one more time because the greens were not what they are today. It's possible that I could see both courses as being too close to call for any clear difference.

Let me ask you -- have you played both? If so -- what's your impressions?

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt:

Read more carefully.  I asked if anyone had praised it AS HIGHLY as Dave did.  Are you willing to state it's the #1 place you would most point a plane to, as he has?  I didn't think so, but if so, please do state here. 

And would that "taking the time" was all that went into getting to see courses....

TH

[Jim Nugent]

Matt:

Read more carefully.  I asked if anyone had praised it AS HIGHLY as Dave did.  Are you willing to state it's the #1 place you would most point a plane to, as he has?  I didn't think so, but if so, please do state here. 

David Moriarty gave Rock Creek heavy praise.  Shivas said the guys he played with felt the same as he did.  They had just come from Sand Hills, IIRC, and preferred RCCC. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt:

Read more carefully.  I asked if anyone had praised it AS HIGHLY as Dave did.  Are you willing to state it's the #1 place you would most point a plane to, as he has?  I didn't think so, but if so, please do state here. 

David Moriarty gave Rock Creek heavy praise.  Shivas said the guys he played with felt the same as he did.  They had just come from Sand Hills, IIRC, and preferred RCCC. 

Jim:

David M. did give high praise, but also said in essence Shivas was a bit nuts to go as far as he has. But thanks for the reminder about Shivas' friends.  I'll just have to hunt them down also if necessary.

I don't expect to have to do this hunting.  I just want shivas to feel some pressure.