[Charlie Goerges]

Ahh yes Brett, the inverse redan. I remember it well, and welcome aboard the good ship lollipop.

[Ian_L]

Pat,

In the last activity all we did was flatten and elevate tees, and deepen bunkers with fairly simple editing.  Shaping fairways and greens is a rather difficult process I wasn't able to succeed in, and I think it would be pretty time consuming.  I would advocate for no earth moving besides tees and bunkers.

I think the subject of greens is an important one, though.  Due to the lack of subtle contours on the Sketchup file, I found it pretty hard to find an interesting green site that wasn't dead flat.  So what I did was lower my standards a bit.  I laid out the greens on slightly steeper ground when necessary and assumed that the shapers would soften the contours a bit (while keeping the general slope consistent with the topo map) to provide a puttable surface.  I found this worked pretty well, because it meant I had a larger range of green sites that weren't dead flat, so I could incorporate green contours into the design of the hole.  I suppose this is what I would advocate for in the contest as well.

Also, how would we present our work?  Would we simply send our file to the judge(s), or would we use screenshots to present and explain our holes in the forum?

It's great to see so many people interested in this activity, I'm excited to see how it turns out.  As for prizes, if anyone here's a member of Cypress, a free round there wouldn't be too bad...

[Charlie Goerges]

I'll second Ian's idea about shaping. Even though I'll not be in the contest portion, I don't think shaping (beyond tee's and bunkers) would be a great idea. It would tend to favor those who know sketchup the best rather than those who do the best job routing the course. Also, I don't think it will/should be judged too much on the artistic quality of the images, but on the quality of the routing given the topography.

For judging/presentation, I think it would be worthwhile for each entrant to give the sketchup file to the judges, but also to output an overhead with contour lines showing as well as a few of their favorite images with some descriptions. Then put the overhead and other images into a post on the actual armchair thread. Right now I forsee 2 threads. The "Contest" thread with rules, descriptions, some help info, some Q&A, and perhaps some preliminary images from either me, or the entrants for help purposes. And the "Results" thread with the final entries and perhaps links to the actual sketchup files, followed by judging results. Perhaps a third thread would make sense, with a listing of the winners (though you're all winners in my book) prominently placed, for eternal bragging rights (at least for one year anyway).

For prizes, let's get some suggestions going. One thing that's difficult is the fact that people probably live all over the place, but don't let that stop you from making some suggestions. I think it would be great if the winners got to meet/play a round with Yannick and/or the other judges (if we can line some more folks up) for some neat discussion of design etc. Unfortunately, I don't have any idea how feasible that is going to be. Let us know your thoughts everyone.

Thanks,

Charlie

[Garland Bayley]

... I don't think it will/should be judged too much on the artistic quality of the images, but on the quality of the routing given the topography.
...

I'll second the idea of not judging too much on artistic quality. The magazine contests seem to have to judge mostly on that, because they end up having to publish the winner(s). IMO they have published some real clunkers golfwise with the exception of the Y shaped par 5 a few years ago that I thought was an inspired golf design.

I'm in favor of a contest so much that I am willing to volunteer to judge as a non-architect judge. As a former paper grader, I am used to people not appreciating my opinions and criticisms.

[Ian_L]

Something else I just thought of.  Since Charlie knows the course, maybe he could give some kind of review of the customer's needs.

Is it public, private, resort...?
Will it be holding professional championships?
What kind of player will be playing this course on a regular basis?
Does each nine have to loop back to the clubhouse?
Do we need room for a practice area and maintenance facilities?
I'm sure others could think of more...

[Ian_L]

All: we now have a 3-2 count in favor of a contest. If we go that route, I’d like to see a number of categories, so that more folks have a chance to shine. I’m thinking Best Overall, Competitors’ Choice, Best par 3/4/5, most dastardly bunker, etc. Give me your ideas.

A few suggestions that popped into my head:

Best green sites
Best low-budget course
Most walkable
Best original hole
Most playable for the average golfer
Best tee placement (i.e. forward tees of interest that do not interfere with play)
Most creative routing
Best 3-hole stretch

Maybe architect-based awards?  In other words, the hole that most resembles a MacKenzie, Tillinghast, Raynor, etc.

[Charlie Goerges]

Some good ideas Ian. If folks could chime in on a few of these and on prizes as well.

We now have several judges. Including (in no particular order):

Yannick Pilon
Rich Goodale
Ian Andrew
Jeff Brauer
Tom Naccarato
Mike Nuzzo
Dave Schmidt

A special thanks to all the judges.

Again RE prizes; Ideally I'd like to see the winners get a chance to meet with the judges and discuss everyone's favorite topic. I don't know how feasible this is. Though perhaps if the judges are distributed all over the country and world, the winners could meet with the judge geographically closest to them.

[Ian_L]

Maybe as a simpler prize, somebody with graphic design skills could make a printable scorecard for the winning course. 

Or, maybe the winner would be allowed to pick the property for the next competition (assuming there will be more than one of these).

[Charlie Goerges]

Good idea Ian. I'll do a scorecard template. The picking of property is fine by me, but it might be a bit overwhelming too. So, scorecard added; let's hear some more ideas.

Charlie

[Michael Rossi]

Charlie

Sketch up is easy to use, I messed around with it today, and got some acceptable results, bring on the contest.

I look forward to being critiqued by the experts.

[Reef Wilson]

I'd love to give this a whirl. I really enjoyed fooling around with a map someone posted last year though I didn't post my attempt.

I like the idea of using a property that has actually had a course built on it and then seeing afterwards how we all compared to the real final design done.

[paul cowley]

I'd love to give this a whirl. I really enjoyed fooling around with a map someone posted last year though I didn't post it.

I like the idea of using a property that has actually had a course built on it and then seeing afterwards how we all compared to the real final design done.

I concurr with Reef.

I'll judge too.

[Charlie Goerges]

Well Paul, you're hired.

I've got to say that the panel of judges on this contest must be one of the most illustrious (if not THE most illustrious) of its kind ever assembled.

I'll begin compiling all the contest info and instructions for a post that will kick off the contest. The details will be finalized on this thread before that post is made. The contest will begin after the holidays because any sooner is a recipe for insanity on my part and low participation on the part of the potential contestants.

Within the next week, I'd like to have the categories and prizes pretty much nailed down. If we don't get much input, the categories will be a hybrid of what's been posted so far and the prizes will consist of a beautiful scorecard for the winner(s) course.

Thanks to all who have responded and volunteered thus far.

[Ian_L]

Thanks for all your effort, Charlie.

[Nicholas Coppolo]

I'm in

[Charlie Goerges]

Okay, I am just doing the last call for suggestions on the contest. We have an additional judge, Ron Farris. Thank you Ron!

Now, as it stands, the contest will consist of a best overall, to be awarded by the judges. We'll also divide the judges into 3 groups, each group will decide on a favorite hole of a given par. So all judges will vote on the best overall. But each judge will only vote on one "best" hole (i.e. best par 3). This is only so that the judges won't have too much to do.

The prize for best overall will be a custom scorecard that (fingers crossed) will be autographed by each of the judges.

So, if you'd like to amend the previous info, speak now, or forever hold your peace.

I am hoping to post the contest thread this weekend. My original post will explain the contest rules, how/where to download the files, the "client" requirements. Additional posts will contain tutorial information (much of which will be cribbed from my previous armchair arch thread) and some tips. Without going into it here too much, you'll have about a month to complete your routing.

Again, any additional ideas/suggestions should be posted in the next few days, I'll bump this thread one or two more times before Friday.

Thanks much,

Charlie

[Kalen Braley]

Charlie,

Will submissions be "anonymous"?  I'm think of paying this Joe Hancock guy to do mine...whaddayathink? 

[Charlie Goerges]

Charlie,

Will submissions be "anonymous"?  I'm think of paying this Joe Hancock guy to do mine...whaddayathink? 

They'll be anonymous to the judges, but not to me. But just between you and me, no way is any design by someone named "Joe Hancock" going to win

[Ian_L]

Charlie, will contestants receive any feedback from the judges once their designs are complete?  It would be really valuable to have a short written response sent to each contestant highlighting a few strengths and weaknesses of the course.  Of course, we don't want to burden the judges too much, either.

[Charlie Goerges]

Ian, I think we'll try to have the judges give a bit of input beyond simply judging. If the judges want to weigh in here on how much input would be appropriate, that would be good.

I'm also trying to finalize a scoring method. I was thinking that each judge could rate each entry on a scale of 1-10. I would then average the score for each entry with the highest score being the winner. Basically the courses are being judged on the routing, though the added elements such as bunkers (and the strategy they create) should matter too. Perhaps a 1-10 score for routing, and a 1-10 score for strategy for each entry should be used?

This is not set in stone, but for the best par 3,4,5 contests, each judge will be assigned to one of the three groups (par 3,4,5) and nominate one hole. Then the judges in that group will vote on the nominations. If no clear winner emerges, perhaps I will cast the deciding vote. I don't like that solution, but I don't want to unduly burden the judges by making them score individual holes. So I'm open here to suggestions.

[Charlie Goerges]

Bumpioca

[Adam Sherer]

Charlie, et al,

I really appreciate the idea of a GCA.com endorsed architecture "contest".  However, I think it will ultimately be more fulfilling for everyone if there are no constraints on the entries. 

I tried the google sketchup program for about twenty minutes and realize that I (like many others) don't have the time to truly utilize the program and submit even a half-way decent design submission.

It will be the best for this contest idea to allow a single hole (like the GD contest) which will focus insight and critique on a singular idea, rather than a broad-sweeping critique of a routing (essentially).

Would it not be more fun to see 200 or 300 individual hole designs (from our beloved fellow gca.com'ers) than to see 20 or 30 routings from the few people that actually have the a) patience b) time c) comprehension to learn the sketch-up program and submit a design?

Anybody can sketch a hole, scan it, and post it on here.

There can be guidelines too for this (or maybe its three holes - a par 3, par 4, par 5).

Just my perspective.


Adam

[Charlie Goerges]

Adam,

I hear you and I understand your concerns. I don't think we'll be changing the contest this time around, but your suggestion should be considered for the next one.

I will say that this contest is more involved because all of the other contests out there fit your description pretty closely already. The point of this one is to use the features on the ground smartly, rather than design in a vacuum. To perhaps get a taste of the difficulty of doing what the pros have to deal with.

Also, I understand the frustration with using a new software program. I will do my best to make sure that Sketchup doesn't prevent anyone from participating. I don't know yet what this will entail, but if you (or anyone) wants to put in the time to lay out a course, I'll help make sure that time comes to fruition.

Thanks for the input,

Charlie

[Charlie Goerges]

Bumpster...

This is the last bump of this thread for suggestions before I post the contest thread this weekend sometime. I plan to PM all of the judges and avowed participants with a link to that thread as well.

[Reef Wilson]

Something else I just thought of.  Since Charlie knows the course, maybe he could give some kind of review of the customer's needs.

Is it public, private, resort...?
Will it be holding professional championships?
What kind of player will be playing this course on a regular basis?
Does each nine have to loop back to the clubhouse?
Do we need room for a practice area and maintenance facilities?
I'm sure others could think of more...

Along these same lines, how many sets of tees does there need to be or is that up to each person?

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