Tee Boxes: is unorthodox better?

[Jordan Wall]

I've been pondering posting this for a while, at the risk of getting mauled. 

But, the other day I was flipping through some golf magazine back home and saw a picture of the infamous tee boxes at Legacy Golf Club, in Las Vegas (pictured, below).  While I'll admit they were done totally by the hand of man, I found it interesting to think about the hole could play so drastically different from the extreme sides of each tee.  For instance, a right pin would be particularly taxing from the right side of the clover.

Are tee boxes of varied shapes, to the point where teeing from one side versus the other signifigantly changes the hole, good ways to make a hole interesting?

Are tees of varied shapes especially useful on par threes where they could spice up an otherwise straightforward hole?

Despite this hole, I think it's evidet how where you tee off from on any given tee box could influence how hard the shot is.

[Anthony Gray]

   Jordan,

  Great thread. Variety is aways better. My home course never moves the tees. I can tell you now what club I am going to use on each par 3 6 months from now.I vote yes to variety.

  Anthony

[John Foley]

Jordan - isn't this a feature at Chambers Bay, the free flowing tee boxes and ability to create requirements for different shots?

How is it working in that environment?

[Ken Moum]

   Jordan,

  Great thread. Variety is aways better. My home course never moves the tees. I can tell you now what club I am going to use on each par 3 6 months from now.I vote yes to variety.

  Anthony

That's one of my gripes as well.  Recently whoever is setting up our course has done a muchbetter job of varying the length of some of our par threes.  

Sometimes we have seen as much as 30+ yards of variation. And on one hole--with a separate blue tee--the whites have been on that tee a couple of times.

However, we also have one where there's an original Ross tee at a completely different angle, and it almost NEVER gets used. It's too bad, because the hole is better from over there.

K

[Jon Wiggett]

I've been pondering posting this for a while, at the risk of getting mauled. 


Are tee boxes of varied shapes, to the point where teeing from one side versus the other signifigantly changes the hole, good ways to make a hole interesting?

Are tees of varied shapes especially useful on par threes where they could spice up an otherwise straightforward hole?

To answer your first question Jordan, yes and no. It is the width or length of the tee and necessarily the shape that is important and so in this case the shape doesn't matter.

With the second question, the shape of a tee will not save a poor hole nor ruin a great one IMHO

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Many 9-hole courses have completely separate tee boxes for the second time round, sometimes changing lengths and angles considerably. I can think of some excellent examples locally. The good thing about that is that you can make these things consistent with returning cards for handicap purposes.

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan - isn't this a feature at Chambers Bay, the free flowing tee boxes and ability to create requirements for different shots?

How is it working in that environment?

John,

I can think of several holes at Chambers Bay, particularly the par-3's, where this is indeed the case and the varied tee placements determine the type of shot needed to be play (length, angle, etc).

It makes the holes a lot better in the sense that it can play different on a day to day basis, particularly at Chambers due to the wind.

A great example is the third, where you may have the same length shot at a completely different angle.  A back left pin would be accessible from the right tee location, and virtually impossible to get to from the left side of the tee box.  It really makes things interesting.

Cheers,
Jordan

[Garland Bayley]

I think the most extreme example I have seen of this is a par 3 with a 360 degree tee. I don't remember where it is. Perhaps someone can inform Jordan.

[Mike_Cirba]

Jordan,

I've played the Legacy, and at ground level I can state pretty affimratively that it doesn't make much of a difference where the markers are set.

They also look pretty dumb from the ground, but since it's Vegas, they should get a pass because it's clearly not about low-key grace and subtlety. 

[Jordan Wall]

I think the most extreme example I have seen of this is a par 3 with a 360 degree tee. I don't remember where it is. Perhaps someone can inform Jordan.

Garland,

I think that's Desmond Muirhead, though I forget the course.

In that case, that is perhaps too extreme as certain tee positions most certainly interrupt the flow of the routing.  Imagine walking 180 degrees around a hole , going back to the green, then going back to the next tee close to where you started.  That would be a lot of un-needed extra walking, which would definitely interrupt the flow.  There's a reason Desmond Muirhead was the one to do that.  

Using the third at Chambers, which you have seen and played, you can see how using varied tee placements can work without interrupting the routing.

Jordan,

I've played the Legacy, and at ground level I can state pretty affimratively that it doesn't make much of a difference where the markers are set.

They also look pretty dumb from the ground, but since it's Vegas, they should get a pass because it's clearly not about low-key grace and subtlety. 

Mike,

I have not played it, just seen those photos, and I do admit the tee boxes are quite quizzical to say the least.  Only in Vegas, right!?

But, it would still appear that a tee position on the right side of the clover would make right hole locations interesting.  I'm not saying make tee boxes in the shape of card suits, just using even the worst of examples to show how a hole could be made interesting based off angles of tee locations.

Cheers,
Jordan

[Garland Bayley]

Jordan,

Cartball! Remember that's what many Americans play! That's what give architects the termerity to make players traverse the length of a hole twice or more such as Kalen's cartball course Thanksgiving Point.

[Scott Witter]

Jordan:

Better is like beauty for many such as in the 'eye of the beholder'  I do think, however, that undefined organic teeing grounds are far more engaging such that they don't dictate to the player that they must start here or there.  I like the fact that the player must judge for themselves what 'feels' the best given many elements at the moment.  I am reminded of comments I recently read from those who played in the Old McDonald 10 hole outing.  I understood that there were no set 'tees' or markers from which to play and it sounded as this was highly desirable.  As the old golf links evolved and from the enjoyment expressed by many in this group, the teeing grounds at Pacific Dunes, Sebonack and others, have a certain appeal, charm and challenge of their own.

Like many golf features, we have come to accept or tolerate, that it is all much a part of a larger art form and a socially approved format that works, but it is also refreshing to see that some architects and owners are willing to take the risk and walk a different path regardless of what we might think.

[Mike_Cirba]

I think Scott has a good point, and although I haven't been to Chambers Bay, one of the great appeals of the Sheep Ranch is that played correctly, the winner of match-play on any hole should have the ability to pick out the specific unmarked area for the next tee....although in the case of SR, you have the added benefit of being able to pick which of the 13 greens you might want to play to, as well! 

Freedom is good.

[D_Malley]

when two consecutive holes are going in the same direction in many cases wouldn't it make good sense to put two seperate teeing grounds on either side of the green of the first of the two holes. particularly if the second hole is a par 3.

good examples include:
merion east # 9 par 3
phila cricket # 6 par 4

[Scott Witter]

Mike:

Thanks for these two examples and your reference to play at the SR, this is just what came to mind when I was writing.

[Phil Benedict]

I think tees should be wider in order to create more variation in angles.  It always surprises me how seemingly minor changes in tee set up either to the left or right can affect how the hole plays. 

A lot more tee area is used to lengthen tees than to widen them.

[Kirk Gill]

There's a very short par-3 at Jim Engh's Fossil Trace that had to kind of be shoe-horned in to a small sliver of land. There wasn't enough room for the tee box to extend away from the green, so it extends laterally, with the easier tees oriented to give the player a wide-open shot at the green, while the "black" tees are over to the left, forcing a carry over both wetlands and a nasty pot bunker. Both shots are of similar length, but of varying difficulty. Of course, this orientation only provides variety to the player who is willing to play from different sets of tees on occasion. Not an ideal situation, perhaps, but a good way of dealing with a tough routing issue.

[Anthony Gray]

  You change hole positions everyday for variety so why not tees?

  Anthony

[Matthew Hunt]

Variety is the crux of tee set up for members, not just on par 3's. What I’ve said on this site before is that more architects should attempt to add diversity to the tees not just in length but taking them at different angle, putting them at different heights and even making some blind. In other word’s the Architect should let as much diversity into his designs as the lay of the land will allow. One of my grouching points is greenkeepers moving the tees up into the wind and pushing them to the back when the winds with you, I would even go as far as Pete Dye and advocate the opposite.

[Ryan Farrow]

One of my grouching points is greenkeepers moving the tees up into the wind and pushing them to the back when the winds with you, I would even go as far as Pete Dye and advocate the opposite.

Matthew, as a golfer, I would want this. And that is why green keepers do it. It makes sense. If anything a player might get to the original landing area, they still have to deal with the wind on their approach. I love playing in wind but on long holes into the wind it gets kind of annoying inching the ball along, especially on par 5's.



AND:

Where is this 360 Degree tee I need to know!

[Bill_McBride]

One of my grouching points is greenkeepers moving the tees up into the wind and pushing them to the back when the winds with you, I would even go as far as Pete Dye and advocate the opposite.

Matthew, as a golfer, I would want this. And that is why green keepers do it. It makes sense. If anything a player might get to the original landing area, they still have to deal with the wind on their approach. I love playing in wind but on long holes into the wind it gets kind of annoying inching the ball along, especially on par 5's.



AND:

Where is this 360 Degree tee I need to know!

I don't know about 360, but #6 at Tobacco Road must be 200 degrees.  Brent Hutto is fond of this hole. 

[Kalen Braley]

I posted this pic about a year ago and its a Muirhead course found in Dubai.

Apparently there are some GCA'ers who have played this course and indicated it was indeed a 360 degree tee around an almost island green.  The amount of pin/tee cominations seems almost endless....

[Joe Bausch]

If a tee box is not level, most if nearly all golfers will complain.  If non-level lies are accepted, or perhaps with many people simply tolerated, elsewhere on a course, why not on the tee? 

[JESII]

I believe a tee complex should be small and of consistent size (with an allowance for slightly larger size on par 3's) and shape...understated rectangles.

Conditioning should be a low priority concern, but I do not like the idea of intentionally unlevel pads.

I think the variety of a hole should be borne out of the green complex and the hazards you encounter on your way to different hole locations in different conditions.

I think, at some point, adding tee boxes for sake of variety is a crutch...if the green end is interesting you do not need the width at the tee end, and if it is, the tee width just might be overkill...see #3 at Royal New Kent.

[Peter Pallotta]

I remember quite a while back Mike Hendren had a thread praising the runway tee, and enumerating its many advantages. It was very convincing (he convinced me at least), and if I remember right, though there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth, no one really dented his argument for the runway tee's efficacy and efficiency.
Just saying...

Peter