What is Slow Play?

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck:

Please -- nuff of the one-time exceptions -- whether at PB or I can cite even BB -- where play on a GIVEN day was better than the other times.

The simple fact is that in the roughly ten times I've played PB -- no less than nine of those visits was the CREEP AND CRAWL show.

The issue is that too many facilities RUSH to get payment and then say GOOD LUCK for the rest of the day.

High end places don't want to handle the issues of slow play because they are AFRAID it might offend the sensibilities of the culprit who's cited -- in return they allow the sensibilities of the other PAYING CUSTOMERS to be tossed aside.

Matt:  believe it or not, I have played Pebble Beach not only more times than you, but over more years most likely, and for sure more recently.  My comment was not citing this as a one-time thing, but since it occurred recently, and in absolute prime-time, it was more of a question:  is it not possible they have somehow solved their slow play issues?

As for the rest, I agree with you.  I am just not certain Pebble Beach remains as an example of this.  Maybe it does, and as I say, maybe I did just get lucky.  But it's equally possible they have fixed their issues.

Tom Y - my comment about Passov could be taken as a compliment for sure, depending on his intent.  Howard Stern sure is more successful than all golf writers combined, at least based on the normal definitions of "success."  But I will indeed leave this to Kavanaugh.

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

Joe Passov gets little love on this site because he does not post on this site and inclusion on the Golf Magazine panel requires more than an email and a pair of pouty lips.  It would not surprise me that you or any other poster on this site would discount his value due to his inability or desire to throw bones your way.  The love of the consumptive arts will always be and has always been strictly on a quid pro quo basis.

Please leave you post intact as it goes to prove my point.

[Tom Huckaby]

Joe Passov gets little love on this site because he does not post on this site and inclusion on the Golf Magazine panel requires more than an email and a pair of pouty lips.  It would not surprise me that you or any other poster on this site would discount his value due to his inability or desire to throw bones your way.  The love of the consumptive arts will always be and has always been strictly on a quid pro quo basis.

Please leave you post intact as it goes to prove my point.

Predictable.  That has absolutely nothing to do with my comment, but I could have written that for you as I knew you'd respond that way.

My friend, you put WAY too much value on this whole rating panelist thing.

Tell your friend Joe he'd be the first one I'd ask if I wanted to know if a course was worth playing, dollar-wise.  Tell him also the Golf Mag panel does a hell of a job; while you're at it, tell him to say hi to my friend Bill Hogan, who at least was once one of their panelists.  (Not sure if he still is).  You might want to ask him also if he writes to get a response; if so he's doing a hell of a job.  You know Whitten does this also from time to time when and if he writes... he's damn good at it also.

In the meantime, my comments shall stand.  Thanks. 

[Anthony Gray]

  It is amazing that people could have such different experiences at the same place. At PB I have always seen rangers. I love the guy in the plus fours. Always a ranger on the 8th tee. And one driving a cart around.

  Anthony

[Charlie Goerges]

In an attempt to quantify what has been stated thus far, would it be fair to say that there are 3 broad groupings of problems when it comes to slow play?

1. Differentials. These might include, skill, expectations, transport, and others.

2. Management. These might include beer cart, maintenance, rangers etc.

3. Training. This is etiquette, golf lessons etc.

I think that the differential category overlaps with the other two especially when there is a differential in training.

[JMEvensky]

Check out Joe P's discussion on PB inside the curren tissue of Golf Mag -- you pay nearly $500 to play 18 holes and after you get stuck for six hours and change -- there is not

ONE MARSHALL !!!

To help speed things along.

The problem with PB and other such places -- in fact, throw in Whistling Straits also in that hopper -- is that THEY RUSH -- REPEAT AFTER ME ...

R-U-S-H

for you to pull your credit card out of your pocket to pay the fee then do their Rip van Wrinkle impersonation when it comes time to make sure your actual round is enjoyed with a steady pace of play.

Always love that routine -- when will people demand otherwise ?

What do you want the marshal to do?Hit the shots for these people?

Pebble Beach and Whistling Straits are perfect slow-play storms.By being high dollar resorts,they attract the corporate pay/twice a year player.Plus,each golf course is hard as hell-irrespective of tee boxes chosen.

When someone pays $500/round,they probably expect to be allowed to play each hole.At PB and WS,there's a possible X on almost every hole.Simply put,each of these golf courses is too hard for most of the people who play them.

How could anyone reasonably expect anything but a glacially paced round at either PB or WS?

[Matt_Ward]

JMEvensky:

Is it too much to ask people to be ready to play when it's their turn ?

In regards to "marshalls" -- most of these pleasant chaps are mere window dressing. They are more ambassadors than anything else.

Yes, how bout actually letting people know they are clogging the course with endless shots -- when someone reaches double-par it's time to do the only honorable thing ...

PUT THE BALL IN YOUR POCKET AND GO TO THE NEXT TEE.

What consideration is there for the GROUP of players if the lone INDIVIDUAL summarily decides how fast they should go?

Management at these places should be thinking of the fact that speed of play is not a politically correct talking point.

HOW BOUT A BIT MORE ACTION ?

Marshalls should observe groups that are slow and approach them when a hole is open in front. The other thing -- if I'm paying big time bucks to play provide a tee time separation of 15 minutes per group in order to make sure adequate spacing is provided. Too many courses force feed players into the course and the slightest burp / hiccup -- can mean multiple groups sitting and dozing on various tee boxes.

The sense of ENTITLEMENT needs adjustment from the management of these places. If people can't understand that slow play WILL NOT be tolerated then simply give them their money back. End of story.

Huck admits that at PB the situation is less today than what it once was.

I can't swear to that as my last round at PB was a few years back.





When someone pays $500/round,they probably expect to be allowed to play each hole.At PB and WS,there's a possible X on almost every hole.Simply put,each of these golf courses is too hard for most of the people who play them.

How could anyone reasonably expect anything but a glacially paced round at either PB or WS?

[Tom Huckaby]

Now wait a second Matt, not sure what you mean by:

Huck admits that at PB the situation is less today than what it once was.

All I said is that in October I played a very very prime time round in 4.5 hours with very little waiting or being pushed.  I don't recall seeing any marshalls at all, but I didn't exactly look for them and they weren't exactly needed.  I have no idea WHY it worked out this way, but the tee sheet was indeed filled. 

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

Then leap off the roof and take a clear stand ...

Does PB have a major slow play problem in your opinion today -- as in 2008 ?

Just yes or no would be nice -- you can add sentences afterwards as needed to buttress your point.

Here's what you said -- a great straddling quote if I have ever heard one ...

"I am just not certain Pebble Beach remains as an example of this.  Maybe it does, and as I say, maybe I did just get lucky.  But it's equally possible they have fixed their issues."

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt:

I don't see what's wrong with what I said.  I have no clue if they continue to have a slow play problem or not IN GENERAL.   One would have to play there on a daily basis to know that.  If you want to finance that for me so you can get an answer, I'll make myself available.  I'm just here to tell you that on that October prime-time day, play was perfectly paced.

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

Love it.

You missed your calling.

Go into politics -- you love to ride the saddle of saying nothing definitively.

Of the total rounds YOU have played at PB -- was slow play an issue?

Got it now ... all you need to say is yes or no. Of course, if you prefer to continue with the tap dance act -- I'll forward you a cane to that you tap even more gracefully.

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt:

I don't like to base sweeping general opinions on one example. 

But I guess you want me to do so....

In that case, then yes, my opinion would be that they fixed their slow play issues.  I just don't feel strong enough about that to tell a friend teeing off at noon to make 5pm dinner reservations.

Hopefully that suits your need for the black and white.

 

[JMEvensky]

Matt Ward,the "sense of entitlement" you decry was paid for in the pro shop.I've played PB several times and have not once been given the opportunity to pay a per-shot green fee.I assumed the fee covered all 18 holes.

If I understand correctly,you believe that PB,for example,should take $500 from a guest and then have a marshal follow him around telling him that he's playing too slowly?This,you believe,will engender the guest with good feelings about their PB experience?Probably not a recipe for repeat customers.PB(and Whistling Straits as well) is a resort that owes its existence to hacks.They play slowly because they're horrible golfers but they can afford the green fee.This will never change.

At a private club or a muni,I agree.People should be mindful of how their "hack-ness" slows up the procession and there should be ways of resolving it.But at a resort which lives and dies by their enjoyment(or lack thereof),you're living in a dream world.

[Matt_Ward]

JMEvensky:

How do you presume that a golf course is a solitary exercise ?

Allow me to point out a golf course is like a highway with multiple users. The golf course / highway is not solely there for your enjoyment if it comes at the expense of others.

My money is no less valuable than yours -- we each agree to provide a degree of etiquette (the core of the game) and that includes moving at a pace that allows others -- as well as yourself -- to enjoy the day.

When people PRESUME that their round of golf is more important than anybody else's then frankly they PRESUME too much.

You didn't understand me correctly -- when some clown is taking more than double the par PER HOLE -- and INSISTS he finish the hole even if it means double digit scores on nearly all the holes then yes I expect management to defend the rest of the field from such selfish intent at all costs.

You tell me I'm in a "dream world" -- really, do you expect the enjoyment of countless others to kneel at the whim of one group who clearly is out of touch with keeping a reasonable pace? Six plus hour golf is insane and management that talks about speed of play but does nothing proactive to achieve it is nothing more than a smoke and mirrors commitment to its end objective.

How about the "good feelings" of countless others? Oh, I see, it's better to insure the "good feelings" of one group -- one foursome -- and have 30-40 other foursomes be really pissed off at management for their head in the sand attitude.

What you don't get / see / understand is that resort placs have simply pushed core golfers elsewhere when they follow your recipe for action. You now have places like PB and others INSISTING on a set of tees to play which are so far forward as to distort the nature of the design for such players. In sum -- they have caved into the reality of choppers playing the course by penalizing the enjoyment of others. That makes perfet sense.

You say "there should be ways of resolving it" but you offer none.

Simple thing to do ...

When a person has reached double par on any hole it's time to do the following ...

PUT BALL IN POCKET AND PROCEED TO NEXT TEE. If you don't like that response -- management should simply refund their money and bid them farewell. Guess what would happen? Those who have had to put up with such turtle like play would circle such a course and return for many more rounds -- a total that woiuld far surpass those that are lost to people who were selfish from the get-go.

Marshalls should protect the integrity of the course and the field -- not just one individual or one group or a few groups that feel ENTITLED to do what they want after paying their fee.  You say it "will never change." The reason for that comes from the lack of comprehension you and others have on this topic and how meaningful action can happen.

[Forrest Richardson]

"Slow Play" has to do with perceived time vs. actual time. For example, a 5 hour round at St. Andrews may not be perceived as "slow" because the player is in awe over all that is happening, the choices, the setting, the caddies, the accents, etc.  But, at a local muni, a 5 hour experience with a few long waits is considered "slow." Both, are acutal timed at 5 hours. Also, a 5+ hour round along the Pacific at Pebble may not be a bad experience, whereas the same length of round at a drab resort course with palm trees as hazards may be the worst round ever.

Also, "slow play" is a point-by-point description...an approach to a hole may be a slow point, and so may a tee, but the round may not exceed a reasonable overall time. The key is pace where we try and make the round flow and ebb correctly. Also, consistency is key. If Starbucks delivered various temperatures, various intensities and a mix of services, no one would go there. The key is product consistency in golf...we want the customer to say, "_________ Golf Club, it's a great course, you can always expect a 4 hour round and the place is awesome." Not, "________Golf Club is a great place, but you'd better get a time before 9am or you'll miss all the playoff games, and maybe dinner."

Bill Yates and I are giving another series of Pace Seminars at the GIS show. Hope to see some of you there.

[JMEvensky]

"Slow Play" has to do with perceived time vs. actual time. For example, a 5 hour round at St. Andrews may not be perceived as "slow" because the player is in awe over all that is happening, the choices, the setting, the caddies, the accents, etc.  But, at a local muni, a 5 hour experience with a few long waits is considered "slow." Both, are acutal timed at 5 hours. Also, a 5+ hour round along the Pacific at Pebble may not be a bad experience, whereas the same length of round at a drab resort course with palm trees as hazards may be the worst round ever.

Also, "slow play" is a point-by-point description...an approach to a hole may be a slow point, and so may a tee, but the round may not exceed a reasonable overall time. The key is pace where we try and make the round flow and ebb correctly. Also, consistency is key. If Starbucks delivered various temperatures, various intensities and a mix of services, no one would go there. The key is product consistency in golf...we want the customer to say, "_________ Golf Club, it's a great course, you can always expect a 4 hour round and the place is awesome." Not, "________Golf Club is a great place, but you'd better get a time before 9am or you'll miss all the playoff games, and maybe dinner."

Bill Yates and I are giving another series of Pace Seminars at the GIS show. Hope to see some of you there.

Agreed.There needs to be the distinction made between slow play and pace of play.

I think slow play(individually) is the harder to deal with for previously mentioned reasons.

Pace of play,IMO,can be dealt with by managing the expectations of people.I think  the "car traffic" parallel works.At my place(granted,a private club),we allow Saturday/Sunday morning 2-,3-,4-,and 5-somes.The theory is that people should be allowed to play,and not have to play,with whomever they want/don't want.

The 2-somes understand that they will finish in ~ 4 hours,the same as everyone else.The pace of play is reasonable for everyone and everyone knows this on the front end.

We just decided that a consistent pace of play trumped letting faster groups play through.It seems to work-nobody has pulled a gun yet.

[Forrest Richardson]

Do you impose a 14 gun limit?

[JMEvensky]

Do you impose a 14 gun limit?

Nah.Most of these guys are probably just as accurate with a gun as they are with a 7 iron.The only people liable to get hit are two fairways over.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Thank you Al Gore!

Nowadays I never go to a new course without first downloading an aerial map. I look for all the possible 'escape' routes from one part of the course to another, and use them if necessary.

It usually is enough to keep me moving at a pace I can stand.