[John Kavanaugh]

I have always been curious about the comment/statistic that the average handicap is the same therefore the game must not be any easier for the masses...Obviously this "average handicap" includes novice players that were not in the equation for the first reading to determine the "average" so they artificially inflate the number.

Like I said on another thread.  Riviera and most other courses were much easier back in the day with slower greens.  On the show last night I believe it was Palmer who hit past the first green and chipped to a difficult pin with maybe 5 feet of roll out.  Make that roll out 15 feet and scores go up.

[JESII]

You think courses are more difficult today for the average player and that is why average handicaps ae the same?

[John Kavanaugh]

Brooks was born in 61, kinda like me, so lucky for him he can do what the rest of us old guys are doing and move up a set of tees in a couple of years.  Sadly for him the Champions Tour should be dead by then...which is the crux of his bitch.  Where this really gets interesting is that the key to beating young guns of length is not in changing equipment it is in changing architecture.  There are courses where young guns beat me and courses where I beat them, you just need to learn how to choose the correct venue for the game.  In this way the new equipment is good and promotes outstanding architecture.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

Show me the facts that the modern ball does not move to a degree that a 6 handicapper with the ability to hit either a fade or a draw does not have an advantage over a six handicapper that can only hit one type of shot.  The fact is that if a poor golfer can curve a modern ball than a great golfer can curve a modern ball.  If one swing is unintentional or not is moot.

John,

Pay attention and follow the discussion. Your quote above has nothing to do with the topic I brought up about your post.

[John Kavanaugh]

You think courses are more difficult today for the average player and that is why average handicaps ae the same?

Yes, courses today are more difficult today than they were in 1976 when a Black Titleist Pro Traj was a perfectly fine ball of adequate length.  At the course I grew up I could drive 3 pars 4's in 1976 that I can no longer drive today and my handicap is higher.

[Garland Bayley]

...
I have always been curious about the comment/statistic that the average handicap is the same therefore the game must not be any easier for the masses...Obviously this "average handicap" includes novice players that were not in the equation for the first reading to determine the "average" so they artificially inflate the number.
...

Jim,

There are, and have always been new people entering and old people exiting the handicap system. At any one time the proportion of newbies to oldbies should be fairly constant. Therefore I believe your reasoning above to be flawd.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Melvyn will go nuts when they put a microwave in every cart to warm balls for more distance!

Kmoun says modern golf is boring to watch.  Havent' we all said that since before modern golf became modern golf?  Is that idea dillusional nostalgia?  Did cameras ever really trace a Trevino fade well enough for us to thrill and marvel at it? (if they did, it was because the low ball flight was easier to follow......)

Isn't it really a matter of waiting to see where the ball comes down?  And with greater hang times, isn't it actually a little more fun because the wait is a milliesecond longer?

And how does the tech affect the boringness of golf when 2/3 of shots shown are putts anyway?

I will say this, Mark Brooks is a thoughtful guy.  He was a member at Colonial when we did some work there years ago.  When we rebuilt some tees, he wanted the 4th tee sloped downhill a bit so it was easier for him to get some distance on his long iron, to keep him from playing a fw wood off the tee. He also was adamant that forward tees either line up perfectly with back tees or were offset far enough that there were no conflicting lines. He felt they were a visual distraction that prevented him from lining up his tee shot.   To those who think his remarks may be a wee bit self serving, I will let you interpret that as you might.

BTW, the average handicap players sure seems to be able to hit a bananna slice with his Pro V, as much as before.  So, tell me why the ball can't be curved as much when millions of golfers seem to do it.

[JESII]

Garland,

The real meat is below...do you agree with me or Kavanaugh?  Arrgh!

I would be surprised if the 18 handicapper from 15 years ago that regularly plays 10 or more rounds per year does not have a lower handicap today.

[John Kavanaugh]

I know 14 handicappers that can fly the ball as far as Tiger...In 1976 there were no 14 handicappers that could fly the ball as far as Nicklaus.

[Garland Bayley]

...
BTW, the average handicap players sure seems to be able to hit a bananna slice with his Pro V, as much as before.  So, tell me why the ball can't be curved as much when millions of golfers seem to do it.

...Historiically the slope of the plot of spin rate vs face angle was somewhat related between the high spin balls and the rock flites of the world. The new ball increased the slope of that plot significantly...

Think about it Jeff.

Also, think about the fact that a balata used to be almost unusable for the beginner than a rock flite, because it sliced even more.

Let me know what you conclude.

[John Kavanaugh]

Garland,

I thought you were older than that.  The only reason poor golfers would not play balata was because they would constantly cut the ball on thin shots.  It had nothing to do with spin.  I am amazed at how the modern Pro V spins when you consider that it no longer cuts.

[Charlie Goerges]

Have the $20/dozen golf balls experienced the same increase in distance as the top-end balls? In any event, I wonder how much worse my cheapies perform considering they live in the garage and are frozen/thawed dozens of times per year, and stay in play much longer than any tour ball.

Charlie, you're giving away a Jedi mind-trick I've been playing on myself for years.  I convince myself that I'm shorter than I really am by leaving my old ratty balls in the garage over the winter.  This year, I think I was playing with ProVs I won in 2005 for winning the long drive at Olympia Fields at a charity outing for cancer research or autism or something ....

My young Paduan

[John Kavanaugh]

One thing that I do not get about this argument is that when faced to a tight pin I sometimes try to hit a fade as opposed to a draw or a straight ball because fades land softer and stop quicker.  Wouldn't this mean that a ball that spins less would need to be worked more often by the pros on tight pins to firm fast greens.  Wouldn't this mean that balls that spin more lead to more dart like strategy because they can stop a ball on a dime on any surface from any distance.  Isn't it a logical leap of conclusion that a ball that does not spin at all would lead to far more interesting strategic choices and shot selection?

[John Kavanaugh]

I know 14 handicappers that can fly the ball as far as Tiger...In 1976 there were no 14 handicappers that could fly the ball as far as Nicklaus.

No you don't.

We have a crazy ass left handed oil field worker 14 handicap who stands on the first tee at Lawrence County Country Club and flies the ball 300 yds onto the first green.  I could secure my argument by saying as far as Tiger or Nicklaus chooses to hit it.  Go to any member guest and you will also find a 10 handicap or above that does the exact same thing. 

[Garland Bayley]

I know 14 handicappers that can fly the ball as far as Tiger...In 1976 there were no 14 handicappers that could fly the ball as far as Nicklaus.

John,

There were lots of 14 handicappers flying the ball farther than Nicklaus. It was quite easy. They simply used rock flites.

[John Kavanaugh]

I know 14 handicappers that can fly the ball as far as Tiger...In 1976 there were no 14 handicappers that could fly the ball as far as Nicklaus.

John,

There were lots of 14 handicappers flying the ball farther than Nicklaus. It was quite easy. They simply used rock flites.

Garland,

How old are you and did you play golf at any level in 1976?

[Phil Benedict]

You think courses are more difficult today for the average player and that is why average handicaps ae the same?

Courses have gotten harder (longer and narrower) negating the scoring benefits that might otherwise have occurred at the grass roots with technological gains.  My course added 300 yards to the  back tees and set up the middle tees (which most guys play from) further back than before the length was added.  My guess is this is a fairly common occurance.  Who knows why?

[Sam Maryland]

Tiger Woods:

"My ball still spins more than anyone else's..."

"I enjoy moving the ball and hitting different shots, and I think that's the way golf should be played," he says. "But the game has changed since I've been on tour. It's hard to make the ball move. You look at the old guys who are or were true shotmakers, like when I played with Lee Trevino at Bighorn and he blew my mind with some of the shots he hit. Then you look on tour and you ask, 'Who's a true shotmaker? Who actually maneuvers the ball or does something different with it?' And there really aren't that many, if any, out here anymore."

Woods says that if he ruled golf, he'd make some changes.

"I'd like to see more spin added to the golf ball, so misses would be more pronounced and good shots more rewarded," he said. "Anytime you bring maneuverability back into the game of golf, it's going to favor the better players who understand how to control the golf ball. It still matters in firm conditions or in wind. I always like to shape something in there a little bit just because I'm giving myself a fatter area for playing a miss, because it's not a game of perfect. I'd eliminate the 60-degree wedge and set a 56-degree limit. For one, it would bring more feel back into the game. Because now guys lay up to exact yardages and hit nothing but full shots. Nobody hits half shots anymore. And it would make the short game around the green a lot harder. If guys didn't have a 60-degree or even a 64-degree wedge to save them, you wouldn't see them being as aggressive going into the greens, because they couldn't short-side themselves as much."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_1_57/ai_n26734482/pg_3

---------------------------------------------

interesting to note that Bubba Watson is known for moving his golf ball around dramatically...prob one of the reasons Tiger plays a lot of practice rounds with him.

----------------------------------------------

Charlie/DSchmidt,

try a $20 box of Srixon AD-333's sometime - I find the difference in distance between those and a ProV1 to be negligible.

[Will MacEwen]

I wonder if there would be more incentive to have a spinnier ball if the TV broadcasts were better able to show players working shots.  You can't sell the artistry if people can't see it.

[John Kavanaugh]

I wonder if there would be more incentive to have a spinnier ball if the TV broadcasts were better able to show players working shots.  You can't sell the artistry if people can't see it.

Do you guys own a TV.  If shots shown behind the pros on television look any more shanked I will need to get a seatbelt for my Lazyboy.  I have always been amazed how television makes shots coming off a club look right of world.

[Chuck Brown]

You could add this quote, from Geoff Shackelford's "The List", as to Mr. T. Woods' thinking on the golf ball:

"...there will come a point in time where they will have to slow it down because we can't play Merion anymore. You can play U.S. Amateur but a professional I think would probably shoot a little lower scores than they did. St. Andrews, if they have to change the course there to accommodate us, then you know things are changing."

[Tony Ristola]

In response to Sam's post/Tiger's comments:

Shorten the ball so an average pro hits it 250-260 and limit the number of clubs to 10 or 11 and you'll find out who the shot makers are.

Let them carry 3 wedges. Add the putter and driver. Now they have 5 or 6 clubs to hit shots from 125 yards and longer.

[Ken Moum]

I know 14 handicappers that can fly the ball as far as Tiger...In 1976 there were no 14 handicappers that could fly the ball as far as Nicklaus.

John,

There were lots of 14 handicappers flying the ball farther than Nicklaus. It was quite easy. They simply used rock flites.

Garland,

How old are you and did you play golf at any level in 1976?

In 1976 I was 29, playing in 12-15 tournaments a year.

And I agree with Garland, there were more than a few 80-85 shooters who hit could hit it nine miles.  And he's also correct that most of them were using Topflites.

The two-piece Executive was introduced in 1968, with the Topflite coming out in 1971.

Somwhere in there I watched a young hockey player from Roseau, Minn., fly the green on a 255-yard par  four with a an iron.

The difference between Jack all those long hitters I knew was that Jack could keep his ball on the planet.

K

[Nicholas Coppolo]

I've been in the fairway with 6 of the top 10 players in the world rankings as of 11/30:

NONE of them hit the ball straight on a consistent trajectory. 
Every approach shot has a specific and unique shape.

Driving usually has a consistent shape unless specifically called for by a dog leg that's not "cuttable".  But then they will usually hit a fairway wood to the turn.

If you want to be one of the best players in the world, you HAVE to work the ball, still.

If you just want to be a be a millionaire or keep your card you don't.

Mediocre courses beget mediocre golf.  When thoughtful architecture is on the schedule, the best players show up and respond, and never with a straight ball.

[Chuck Brown]

I've been in the fairway with 6 of the top 10 players in the world rankings as of 11/30:

NONE of them hit the ball straight on a consistent trajectory. 
Every approach shot has a specific and unique shape.

Driving usually has a consistent shape unless specifically called for by a dog leg that's not "cuttable".  But then they will usually hit a fairway wood to the turn.

If you want to be one of the best players in the world, you HAVE to work the ball, still.

If you just want to be a be a millionaire or keep your card you don't.

Mediocre courses beget mediocre golf.  When thoughtful architecture is on the schedule, the best players show up and respond, and never with a straight ball.

I won't argue that point with you, Nicholas.

As for Mark Brooks, angling speicifically for rules requiring balls that have more spin in them, it may be self-interest on his part, and he may be lobbying for one particular class of players, including himself and Cory Pavin and some others.

But as for the argument that spin or no spin, the balls (and equipment in general, but especially, particularly, uniquely, BALLS), go far -- too far -- I just don't see any other side.  It is absolutely inarguable that modern balls and other equipment are no longer a good fit for most (not just "most,' but the vast majority) of existing golf course architecture, in the hands of elite players.

I truly don't favor any one group of players over another.  I have no desire to prevent JB Holmes form winning, or to help Mark Brooks win, or vice versa, or anything in between.  All I'd like to see, for once in most of our lifetimes, are major championships in which the golf courses don't need radical plastic surgery.

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