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Anthony Fowler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2008, 08:22:17 AM »
Anthony, I see what you mean there (nice explanation).  However, wouldn't you end up with a mess of non-linear rankings, as you mentioned earlier? (A > B > C > A)  Perhaps not.  While I don't see this specific project going down that route.  I would definitely be interested in such an activity.

Yes you could, and probably would in this case, get some non-linear rankings: Condorcet cycles.  We would have to come up with a way of breaking the 3 or more way tie (or we could just leave the courses in tie).  There are several ways to do this but all of them are problematic for some very subtle reason.  My proposed solution here would be to break the tie with first place votes. 

Going back to our previous example, imagine that Shinny clearly beat all other 3, but because of some quirky voting the remaining 3 are in a Condorcet cycle.  The tie would be broken as follows.  Among everyone who played all 3 of those courses, count up how many rated Sebonack above both National and Southampton.  Likewise count those who rated National over the other 2 and Southampton over the other 2.  The course with the most of these "first place" votes would be ranked 2nd out of the 4, and so on.

The reason this solution is slightly problematic is there is no good way to break the tie because there is just no clear winner.  Our tiebreaking system might rank Sebonack 2nd and Southampton 4th, even though among everyone who has played both courses, Southampton was prefered.  It is for this reason that we might just rather leave all courses in a cycle in a tie.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2008, 10:35:21 AM »
Can I make a suggestion how you could compile a serious and proper set of ratings:

Firstly, make sure TD is ok about using his Doak Scale.
Every course in CG makes the list that is above 6 as the start base, plus the courses not listed that have been nominated.
GCA members can vote for any golf course that they feel is a 6 or better according to the criteria as TD says but is in the opinion of the rater how he scores.
All votes are collated.
The best 3 votes are taken to gain a solid rating
When you achieve a 8 rating you must have 10 votes with a 8 or more
When you achieve a 9 rating you must have 20 votes with a 9 or more
When you achieve a 10 rating you must have 30 votes endorrsing a 10.
You could compile an exact rating between those numbers by adding the next 10, 20 or 30 scores.

I.e : lets say Birkdale gets 3x '10's 46x '9' 57x '8'
its rating would be a Doak 9
its exact would be 9.15

in time the criteria could for an exact could be moved up by the number of voters, this would improve the accuracy.

You need to set up a database with a line (record) for each course and a (field) for each GCA member. I do the ratings for all the worlds boxers, I could do this for you easily, just send me the results.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2008, 12:45:41 PM »
I suspect a World top 100 would only consist of courses with a '9' rating possibly a few '8's. I love Boat of Garten but its probably nowhere near in the best hundred golf courses in the world. Its not even top 100 in the UK. I would think 20-25 courses from GB & I would get in a 100. From the rest of Europe it may be a small handfull. Whtever happens., no ones going to agree.

Adrian,

whilst I am inclined to agree with you I also have to reach the conclusion that for me you are wrong on the BOG example. When voting for something like this it is first a question of what are we voting for?

I feel that the overall golfing experience is more important than length or par. In order to beable to judge that you need to have played the course or atleast seen it. BOG is in my top 100 courses because I haven't played 100 that are better.

I have played Pine Valley and so would vote for that but I haven't played Cypres or Pebble beach so would not vote for them even though I know they deserve to be in there (how could I when I haven't experienced them). I am sure that they will make it in to the top 100 with out my vote and that is the beauty of so many people voting. It is an average question not everyone has to vote on everyone.

I think you are quite entitled to limit your vote to thos courses that you think are your 100, 8 or 9, top 25 GB&I courses and let others vote as they wish to. It will all come out alright in the end  :) or will it all end in tears :'(
« Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 12:59:13 PM by Jon Wiggett »

John Kavanaugh

Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2008, 12:56:33 PM »
With all due respect to the Doak Scale there are not 100 couses in the world that "I should see in my lifetime".

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2008, 01:11:49 PM »
Nominate:  Grandfather Golf and Country Club..homer nomination  ;)

Bart

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2008, 02:58:36 PM »
Anythony F:
You could use Ian's results to break any ties that resulted from the Concordet system (if you thought you needed to break ties). 

I also think it would be very interesting to see if there were any differences between the results of Ian's poll and a Concordet vote.  I suspect there would be--I find it easier to rank courses in order than to assign Doak numbers to them, and suspect that the latter process will vary greatly among voters.

Matt_Ward

Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2008, 04:09:26 PM »
Ian:

A few rebuttals are in order:

You PRESUME that MORE people will vote low for malicious reasons. Help me out with this -- but where did you get your Kreskin-like ability to make such a definitive statement?

There are honest people who will weigh in with lower numbers - simply for the merits / lack thereof for a number of courses that have previously basked in the sunshine of previous ratings. Under your assumption if one were to apply this to college football -- the "name" schools would never lose their place in line.

With all due respect, your role, as I see it, is to GATHER info -- not GATHER AND THEN FURTHER EDIT. Once you start down that path then no matter how sincere the intentions -- which I believe yours to be -- will be fraught with all the questions I have mentioned.

Ian, you assume that everything must be fine because people have not spoken out. That's a wonderful assumption -- again -- on your part. Sacred cow courses get a tremendous assist in consensus findings because it is these courses which are generally played more frequently and as a result will get more votes -- no doubt, not all of them will be of equal value -- but the attention they do get is far more than those courses that are not as "sacred" because they have not been played as much -- this specifically pertains to courses that are fairly new or off the beaten track.

Ian, let me reiterate the point made previously on the issue of "voter equality."

It's nice to presume such a thing but people who have played wide smattering of courses have a greater portfolio to determine how specific point totals will be given.

A person who has played 50 courses -- may in fact really believe a few of the courses he has played merit an 8 or 9 total -- but that comes only from the 50 or so courses he has played. Someone who has played 1,000 would be a much better position to better understand where the real 8's and 9's actually apply.

No doubt there's a noble desire to be egalitarian in such enterprises but it's fatally flawed for the reasons that different voters are exactly that ...

Different.

Years back Digest did such a thing with its state / regional raters and those at the national level. It made sense -- although the national panel was too closely aligned with "star" people (e.g. Joe Dey, Bill Campbell, Tom Watson, et al) who only reaffirmed the same grouping of courses time after time after time. Part of that reason was because so few of the national panel bothered because of a host of reasons to sample courses outside the usual pecking order ot courses they are most familiar with.

No doubt this poll is different but I wanted to post -- not to teardown -- but to illustrate that my comments are no different than others who have said as much for many years. An individualized list from truly someone or a group of well traveled and well seasoned raters would make for an interesting counterpoint to whatever findings you produce.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2008, 07:48:42 PM »
Jon- Yes I guess thats just another way of doing it, but whilst I loved Boat of Garten, no way is it top 100 by any normal rating.

Ofcourse the problem with any sort of rating system is setting out the initial criteria so a statistic can be properly placed. The Boat is a course I really enjoyed, would love to play again, love seeing pctures of...but it has flaws.

The Doak scale is a good way for anyone to vote or place a rating on a course they have played or know well. personally i'd rather see a grouping of '10s' '9s' and '8s' than a table of courses messed up by a quirky vote.

Why not just vote fr every course you know and give it a number...with Boat of Garten, yes I loved it, did not care it  was 5600 yards... but a serious rating based on TD scale ... I reckon its a 6.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 07:54:36 PM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Ian_L

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2008, 08:39:59 PM »
Adrian, are you saying to write in every course you have played and assign it a Doak value?

Ian:

A few rebuttals are in order:

You PRESUME that MORE people will vote low for malicious reasons. Help me out with this -- but where did you get your Kreskin-like ability to make such a definitive statement?

As I said before, I came to this conclusion by looking at the results of the first poll.  There were clear patterns showing many instances of malicious voting, such as giving all Doak courses 2's while giving places like Sand Hills 9's and 10's.  I don't see how this could possibly be an honest assessment of these courses. I did see instances of isolated votes that seemed strange to me, such as 2's on Muirfield Village and 5's on Pebble Beach.  I agree that there is no way for me to know with certainty whether these votes are honest or not.  However, most of us who discussed this on the previous thread agreed that a statistical policing would be necessary and INCREASE the legitimacy of the list by preventing malicious voters.  I do understand that some honest votes may be tossed out, but I think it's better than the alternative. If you would like I can give you the raw data at the conclusion of the poll and you can do what you like with it.

There are honest people who will weigh in with lower numbers - simply for the merits / lack thereof for a number of courses that have previously basked in the sunshine of previous ratings. Under your assumption if one were to apply this to college football -- the "name" schools would never lose their place in line.

With all due respect, your role, as I see it, is to GATHER info -- not GATHER AND THEN FURTHER EDIT. Once you start down that path then no matter how sincere the intentions -- which I believe yours to be -- will be fraught with all the questions I have mentioned.

I agree, and it pains me to have to do any editing.  However, I and others who are far more qualified than I have concluded it is the best choice

Ian, you assume that everything must be fine because people have not spoken out. That's a wonderful assumption -- again -- on your part.

I'm not assuming there aren't problems, I know there will be problems. I'm simply trying to minimize the distortion.

Sacred cow courses get a tremendous assist in consensus findings because it is these courses which are generally played more frequently and as a result will get more votes -- no doubt, not all of them will be of equal value -- but the attention they do get is far more than those courses that are not as "sacred" because they have not been played as much -- this specifically pertains to courses that are fairly new or off the beaten track.

Ian, let me reiterate the point made previously on the issue of "voter equality."

It's nice to presume such a thing but people who have played wide smattering of courses have a greater portfolio to determine how specific point totals will be given.

A person who has played 50 courses -- may in fact really believe a few of the courses he has played merit an 8 or 9 total -- but that comes only from the 50 or so courses he has played. Someone who has played 1,000 would be a much better position to better understand where the real 8's and 9's actually apply.

No doubt there's a noble desire to be egalitarian in such enterprises but it's fatally flawed for the reasons that different voters are exactly that ...

Different.

Years back Digest did such a thing with its state / regional raters and those at the national level. It made sense -- although the national panel was too closely aligned with "star" people (e.g. Joe Dey, Bill Campbell, Tom Watson, et al) who only reaffirmed the same grouping of courses time after time after time. Part of that reason was because so few of the national panel bothered because of a host of reasons to sample courses outside the usual pecking order ot courses they are most familiar with.

No doubt this poll is different but I wanted to post -- not to teardown -- but to illustrate that my comments are no different than others who have said as much for many years. An individualized list from truly someone or a group of well traveled and well seasoned raters would make for an interesting counterpoint to whatever findings you produce.

Jonathan has told me it wouldn't be too difficult to weigh raters based on experience, so we could have a secondary list using your suggested method.  This way we can compare the two at the end, as I do think both have their merits. Now we have to come up with two names...


I'd like to take a moment to reiterate that this will NOT be an official gca.com list, nor is this activity endorsed by gca.com .

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #59 on: December 06, 2008, 03:03:18 AM »
Adrian,

isn't the Doak scale about GCA but top 100 course ratings about golfing experience?

I just think that if your asked to nominate courses for the top 100 then it can only be done on personal experience and taste. I am probably opening a can of worms here but .....

I don't rate Pebble Beach as highly as it appears on many of the ratings. My opinion is however based on pictures, TV and reviews not on personal experience. I would not vote for it in the top 10 in the world. On the otherside it usually appears very high up on the lists and is placed there by people who have been there in person so it obviously deserves to be high up and so I should vote for it in the top 10. How do I vote for it?

Of the top 10 how many have you played? how do you know they should be there?

Voting can only be done on a basis of personal experience and therefor by your method most here could probably only vote for 30-50 courses

Ian_L

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #60 on: December 06, 2008, 05:10:01 AM »
Jon, that's correct, voters will only vote on courses they have played.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #61 on: December 06, 2008, 08:01:00 AM »
Adrian,

isn't the Doak scale about GCA but top 100 course ratings about golfing experience?

I just think that if your asked to nominate courses for the top 100 then it can only be done on personal experience and taste. I am probably opening a can of worms here but .....

I don't rate Pebble Beach as highly as it appears on many of the ratings. My opinion is however based on pictures, TV and reviews not on personal experience. I would not vote for it in the top 10 in the world. On the otherside it usually appears very high up on the lists and is placed there by people who have been there in person so it obviously deserves to be high up and so I should vote for it in the top 10. How do I vote for it?

Of the top 10 how many have you played? how do you know they should be there?

Voting can only be done on a basis of personal experience and therefor by your method most here could probably only vote for 30-50 courses
Jon- Ive not played many world top 100 courses, I have played Pebble though and it was not as good as I expected, but I think I had too high hopes really..it does hav several fantastic holes and a number of okay ones.
I think the Doak scale is all about the golf course, a 10 is clearly better than a 6, its just a method to measure and if a course gets 100 raters numbers then its much easier to quantify the fairness of that number than lets say if I rate a little nine holer a '10' that no one else has played.
I agree voting has to be by personal experience, I think if you have walked or caddied that should be enough to vote as well.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Sam Morrow

Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #62 on: December 06, 2008, 08:03:08 AM »
I'd like to nominate Lakota Canyons and Austin Golf Club.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2008, 08:13:48 AM »
Adrian, are you saying to write in every course you have played and assign it a Doak value?
Ian - I would say use the list you have collated, plus all courses with a Doak Rating of 6 from the TCG and perhaps extend the lists. People could/should nominate courses that they feel would command a rating of 6 or more. The points Matt makes are sort of fair and certainly can screw ratings up if you collate the wrong facts. If you count 3 ratings as a solid rating for courses up to 7, but use the 10 best ratings to establish courses with 8's, 20 for 9's and 30 for the 10's you eradicate some of the problems Matt eluded too.
From my perspective, UK based I feel I could cast votes on about 70 courses, but maybe you need to go to top 300 in GB & I so as to include .
some of the hiddens 'sixes'. I think you would get a very fair top 100 based on good opinion but with the crazy opinions ..Pebble Beach is a 2 taken out.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #64 on: December 06, 2008, 11:54:32 AM »
Adrian:

The problem with the Concordet system you mentioned is that it would force every rater to make HUNDREDS of hair-splitting comparative decisions.  It's ridiculous to think any one person can sort out his own 33rd, 34th and 35th best course with any degree of precision, and it's dishonest to try and do so, because if I made you sort the exact same list a year later your results would vary significantly.

The whole purpose of the Doak scale was to break down courses into general groups, so that you could know that I thought Prairie Dunes and Augusta National were on approximately even terms.  Ranking one two places ahead of the other can only be done by consensus ... and even then people take the exact placings WAY too seriously.

Matt_Ward

Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #65 on: December 06, 2008, 12:00:01 PM »
Gents:

Golf ratings cannot be broken down to some sort of college football / BCS assessments -- e.g., the #2 versus #3 course.

Likely you need to have broad groups -- as Doak mentioned -- but also what Digest did years ago when it had courses in a first ten, second ten and so forth heading - and finally in a second fifty grouping for its top 100 courses.

Anthony Fowler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #66 on: December 06, 2008, 12:06:30 PM »
The problem with the Concordet system you mentioned is that it would force every rater to make HUNDREDS of hair-splitting comparative decisions.  It's ridiculous to think any one person can sort out his own 33rd, 34th and 35th best course with any degree of precision, and it's dishonest to try and do so, because if I made you sort the exact same list a year later your results would vary significantly.

The whole purpose of the Doak scale was to break down courses into general groups, so that you could know that I thought Prairie Dunes and Augusta National were on approximately even terms.  Ranking one two places ahead of the other can only be done by consensus ... and even then people take the exact placings WAY too seriously.

The way that I would design this Condorcet system would be to allow the raters to declare as many ties or indifferences as he or she likes.  Obviously the more of those tough decisions that the rater can make, the better for the system and the more influce that rater will have on the results.  One could for instance place Pine Valley and Merion in a tie at the top.  Then they could place Augusta and Prairie Dunes in a tie just below, etc.

One potential complaint that raters would have about the Condorcet system is that it does not allow them to declare their cardinal preferences, only their relative preferences.  Say we are only rating 3 courses, the Bandon courses.  Imagine that I think PD and BT are roughly comparable, but I like both of them much much better than BD.  Under the Condorcet system, all I can do is provide my ranking, when in reality I would like to convey the fact that I like 2 of the courses much better than the third.  The problem is that any system that allows raters to express their cardinal preferences, like the Doak scale, incentivises raters to misrepresent their interests, as I have attempted to explain before.  

So you can imagine that the Condorcet system allows you to cast votes between all pairs of courses that you've played on the list.  If you are indifferent between 2 or more courses or cannot make the tough call, then you would be free to put them all at the same level and refrain from casting votes between those courses.  

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #67 on: December 06, 2008, 12:11:53 PM »
Tom- I think you have mixed up my post with someone elses as I am in total agreement with what you say. I am actually suggesting each person gives a rating based on your scale and criteria of courses better than 6 which is obviously still a very fine golf course. They simply rate them a 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10. Some people may only vote on a few courses, some will vote on many. In essence they vote for the favourite courses in groups.
It is when the results are collated it would give the actual ranking. If you had a a few hundred opinions on some courses it would be a very accurate ranking.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #68 on: December 06, 2008, 01:49:13 PM »
I also think that these things are taken way too seriously. Look at Pine Valley for instance. I have had the good fortune to play it and for me I can say it is the best course I have played. I think however that my brother in law would have no chance on his best day of shooting a round with which he would be happy and so he would not have it high up on his best courses list.

This means that whilst for me it is the best it is not the most well rounded nor complete golf course. If I look at it from the side of playability for all standards in all conditions and enjoyability then TOC is way out in frount of anything else I have experienced. Doak scale 10 a must see??? maybe but not necessarily a must play for everyone.

Matt_Ward

Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #69 on: December 06, 2008, 02:22:45 PM »
Jon W:

Curious statement -- does your brother-in-law judge the merits of a course he plays by his own success that day ?

Do you follow likewise ? Clearly, you don't seem to be swayed by that line of argument.

I don't doubt many people do this -- especially higher handicap types who balk at giving fair scores to courses that may be beyond their ability.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #70 on: December 06, 2008, 02:25:21 PM »
Ian,

If it were me and I was trying to limit outliers, I'd at least let our raters rate courses a 5.  I can see someone legitimately rating one of these great courses a 5.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #71 on: December 06, 2008, 02:34:00 PM »
Jon- I think the number of 10s, or 9s or whatever given to a course will show the truth worth. A minority opinion ie a low vote gets disregarded. A golf course playable by a low standard player could not be a factor in assessing a course in the worlds top 100.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #72 on: December 06, 2008, 05:42:53 PM »
Jon- Yes I guess thats just another way of doing it, but whilst I loved Boat of Garten, no way is it top 100 by any normal rating.

Ofcourse the problem with any sort of rating system is setting out the initial criteria so a statistic can be properly placed. The Boat is a course I really enjoyed, would love to play again, love seeing pctures of...but it has flaws.

The Doak scale is a good way for anyone to vote or place a rating on a course they have played or know well. personally i'd rather see a grouping of '10s' '9s' and '8s' than a table of courses messed up by a quirky vote.

Why not just vote fr every course you know and give it a number...with Boat of Garten, yes I loved it, did not care it  was 5600 yards... but a serious rating based on TD scale ... I reckon its a 6.


Agree with all of above (and I haven't played 'BoG')

Ian you're looking for a seconder for Portsalon?  I second it as a hugely enjoyable '6', but no way is it world top 100.

Shouldn't your alternative list be the goups feelings on how courses sit on the Doak Scale?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Ian_L

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #73 on: December 06, 2008, 05:55:40 PM »
John, the plan is in fact to allow votes of 5 or above.

Tony, I don't quite understand what you mean by "Shouldn't your alternative list be the goups feelings on how courses sit on the Doak Scale?"

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #74 on: December 06, 2008, 06:00:11 PM »
Compile the nominations-let everybody vote for any course they've played.

Instead of a 10 point scale-rate each course a 6,7,8,,9 or 10  have about

That way someone with an agenda can't damage a great course with a one or a two out of spite

and see what happens.

and enough with the complicated systems with unpronounceable names ;D
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey