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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #75 on: December 06, 2008, 06:18:19 PM »
A golf course playable by a low standard player could not be a factor in assessing a course in the worlds top 100.

Adrian

I really disagree with you here.  Why can't the fact that a course be playable for all be consideration for greatness?  By the same token, why should a course only good players can get around be given a pass?  Its all down to the eye of the beholder as I have never seen any objective criteria of greatness.  Shame be to us all when and if that day ever arrives because it will more or less mean that so called experts have shoved their opinions further down our throats.  All I can say to that is I (and others) am the ultimate judge because I pay green fees.  To be very honest, I am not terribly interested in the opinions of free loaders unless I know them or have some other reason to trust their opinion.  No matter how much they blag on about objectivity I am not buying it.  The proof in an honest opinion is in paying your own way and being an independent agent.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Chechesee Creek & Old Barnwell

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #76 on: December 06, 2008, 07:16:38 PM »
Jon- I think the number of 10s, or 9s or whatever given to a course will show the truth worth. A minority opinion ie a low vote gets disregarded. A golf course playable by a low standard player could not be a factor in assessing a course in the worlds top 100.
Sean replied to this more politely than I would have done.  The last sentence is rubbish IMHO.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ian_L

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Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #77 on: December 06, 2008, 07:21:11 PM »
Nominations will close Monday night.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #78 on: December 06, 2008, 07:54:14 PM »
Jon- I think the number of 10s, or 9s or whatever given to a course will show the truth worth. A minority opinion ie a low vote gets disregarded. A golf course playable by a low standard player could not be a factor in assessing a course in the worlds top 100.
Sean replied to this more politely than I would have done.  The last sentence is rubbish IMHO.
Mark- Think about it. Some of the great courses have holes across oceans, dramatic carries, a course should be assessed from the back tees and from those a course may be unplayable for a low standard golfer, by all means put in forward tees alternative routes around the trouble but those dont come into the reckoning when you rate the thing. You cant honestly give something a plus because it contains none of those things, we are talking about the worlds top 100 for gods sake.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #79 on: December 06, 2008, 07:59:54 PM »
Jon- I think the number of 10s, or 9s or whatever given to a course will show the truth worth. A minority opinion ie a low vote gets disregarded. A golf course playable by a low standard player could not be a factor in assessing a course in the worlds top 100.
Sean replied to this more politely than I would have done.  The last sentence is rubbish IMHO.
Mark- Think about it. Some of the great courses have holes across oceans, dramatic carries, a course should be assessed from the back tees and from those a course may be unplayable for a low standard golfer, by all means put in forward tees alternative routes around the trouble but those dont come into the reckoning when you rate the thing. You cant honestly give something a plus because it contains none of those things, we are talking about the worlds top 100 for gods sake.

Adrian

I honestly don't understand this perspective.  In my book, greatness is not measured by how difficult a course is.  For sure there has to be an element of challenge - even extreme difficulty on some holes, but to be great there has to be balance and its awfully difficult to attain that from back tees on many of todays so called great courses.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Chechesee Creek & Old Barnwell

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #80 on: December 06, 2008, 08:02:41 PM »
A golf course playable by a low standard player could not be a factor in assessing a course in the worlds top 100.

Adrian

I really disagree with you here.  Why can't the fact that a course be playable for all be consideration for greatness?  By the same token, why should a course only good players can get around be given a pass?  Its all down to the eye of the beholder as I have never seen any objective criteria of greatness.  Shame be to us all when and if that day ever arrives because it will more or less mean that so called experts have shoved their opinions further down our throats.  All I can say to that is I (and others) am the ultimate judge because I pay green fees.  To be very honest, I am not terribly interested in the opinions of free loaders unless I know them or have some other reason to trust their opinion.  No matter how much they blag on about objectivity I am not buying it.  The proof in an honest opinion is in paying your own way and being an independent agent.


Ciao
Its possible a golf course could make the worlds top 100 that anyone can play, but its likely that the great things that asscend a course to the worlds best 100 would contain  sufficent drama and challenge that a low standard player would find too tough.
Subjective greatness is an opinion that is unargueable by definition, but when 1000 opinions say XYZ golf club is Doak 8 yet 1 opinion say its a zero, there becomes a case that it is objective.
It is even subjective how we create the criteria to even judge the best courses.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #81 on: December 06, 2008, 08:10:07 PM »
Jon- I think the number of 10s, or 9s or whatever given to a course will show the truth worth. A minority opinion ie a low vote gets disregarded. A golf course playable by a low standard player could not be a factor in assessing a course in the worlds top 100.
Sean replied to this more politely than I would have done.  The last sentence is rubbish IMHO.
Mark- Think about it. Some of the great courses have holes across oceans, dramatic carries, a course should be assessed from the back tees and from those a course may be unplayable for a low standard golfer, by all means put in forward tees alternative routes around the trouble but those dont come into the reckoning when you rate the thing. You cant honestly give something a plus because it contains none of those things, we are talking about the worlds top 100 for gods sake.

Adrian

I honestly don't understand this perspective.  In my book, greatness is not measured by how difficult a course is.  For sure there has to be an element of challenge - even extreme difficulty on some holes, but to be great there has to be balance and its awfully difficult to attain that from back tees on many of todays so called great courses.

Ciao
Sean - Its just an opinion, you like courses that the majority dont, I can see what you see in some of your likes and I definitely see a lot of good in Pennard, its crazy to me that never made the GB & I top 200. I think you said yourself you thought it was just a bit too short. I think difficulty in most raters minds would play a strong part, length perhaps too would come into it, if you look at the top lists, you dont see many courses less than par 70, or under 6500 yards. Everyone if voting here will vote with a different mindset, it would be interesting to see the results.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #82 on: December 06, 2008, 08:19:17 PM »
A golf course playable by a low standard player could not be a factor in assessing a course in the worlds top 100.

Adrian

I really disagree with you here.  Why can't the fact that a course be playable for all be consideration for greatness?  By the same token, why should a course only good players can get around be given a pass?  Its all down to the eye of the beholder as I have never seen any objective criteria of greatness.  Shame be to us all when and if that day ever arrives because it will more or less mean that so called experts have shoved their opinions further down our throats.  All I can say to that is I (and others) am the ultimate judge because I pay green fees.  To be very honest, I am not terribly interested in the opinions of free loaders unless I know them or have some other reason to trust their opinion.  No matter how much they blag on about objectivity I am not buying it.  The proof in an honest opinion is in paying your own way and being an independent agent.


Ciao
Its possible a golf course could make the worlds top 100 that anyone can play, but its likely that the great things that asscend a course to the worlds best 100 would contain  sufficent drama and challenge that a low standard player would find too tough.
Subjective greatness is an opinion that is unargueable by definition, but when 1000 opinions say XYZ golf club is Doak 8 yet 1 opinion say its a zero, there becomes a case that it is objective.
It is even subjective how we create the criteria to even judge the best courses.

Adrian

Your case is only true based on two huge assumptions.  Are the folks doing the proclaiming really experts and why are they considered more of an expert than someone else?  And two, how much do these folks prize difficulty as a main criteria for greatness?  Personally, I believe the ability to hold championships is way over-rated.  In fact, I am tempted to say that championships are bad for architecture because they focus on a very small percentage of golfers, often minimalizing the importance of balance in types of hazards, length, green speeds, rough etc.  There is no doubt in my mind that nearly all the best courses are those which have given up trying to test the pros.  I can't imagine what a best of list would look like if all the courses had to challenge pros.  It would make for some pretty boring reading and architecture.  

I think Pennard is one of the best course I have seen because it offers all the shots (and choices) and places a premium on ball control.  Yes, its too short for pros, but pros are a small percentage of golfers.  There isn't a course on the planet which caters to all well.  There have to be sacrifices, but I don't accept that the sacrifices have to come at the expense of the handicap player to make a course great. The bottom line is that the opinion of handicap players used for deciding the lists is way under represented.  The best of lists would look very different if a proper cross section of golfers were represented according to percentages.  For some odd reason folks think that the opinions of pros should count more.  I say baloney to that an its probably the reason so many dreary, lifeless courses were built. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 06, 2008, 08:27:01 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Chechesee Creek & Old Barnwell

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #83 on: December 06, 2008, 08:32:14 PM »
Sean- Its a beauty contest and everyone will like different things. If you got 100 golfers together and they played The Belfry and Kington, how many would say they enjoyed Kington more? Its hard to raise a team to play Painswick  from our club. A couple of posters here have said one of my courses was a waste of a farmers field. All you can do is look at courses rated and look at patterns of the courses that make those lists, they are very often long golf courses and very often they stage championships. You can ofcourse critise the criteria of how the raters judge.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #84 on: December 06, 2008, 08:48:57 PM »
Sean- Its a beauty contest and everyone will like different things. If you got 100 golfers together and they played The Belfry and Kington, how many would say they enjoyed Kington more? Its hard to raise a team to play Painswick  from our club. A couple of posters here have said one of my courses was a waste of a farmers field. All you can do is look at courses rated and look at patterns of the courses that make those lists, they are very often long golf courses and very often they stage championships. You can ofcourse critise the criteria of how the raters judge.

Adrian

I do criticize the criteria used because I think it is far too weighted toward championship golf.  Why, because the better players have always had more sway in how courses were judged and that attitude has carried on to the point where we have sacred cows because thats the way its always been.  Folks will slot in many courses because thats what is expected.  And if questioned the response is well its a championship course.  If questioned further they say its a championship course because its tough. 

For sure this is all subjective.  I am only suggesting that if the punters had more representation then lists would look a lot different.  That isn't necessarily good or bad, just different to reflect the the different realities of different level golfers.  I know that I stick out a bit for my tastes especially concerning the over use of bunkers and that is probably why I have a problem with so many championship courses.  Many are far too predictable in how their challenges are presented.

BTW   I know quite a few people who enjoy Kington more than the Belfry.  Its fairly widely acknowledged that the Belfry is more or less a slog for half the year - its that wet n' sloppy.

Ciao     
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Chechesee Creek & Old Barnwell

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #85 on: December 06, 2008, 09:04:01 PM »
Second:  Pine Tree

Nominate:
Diamond Creek
Cherokee Plantation
Forest Creek-South
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #86 on: December 06, 2008, 09:10:50 PM »
Sean, there are still a few courses near to you that I think you would enjoy on your Fridays.
Cleeve Cloud
Minchinhampton Old course
Stinchcombe Hill

BTW I do take notice what you say, the course I ave just finished/ finishing has just 23 bunkers on it.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #87 on: December 07, 2008, 03:49:30 AM »
Jon- I think the number of 10s, or 9s or whatever given to a course will show the truth worth. A minority opinion ie a low vote gets disregarded. A golf course playable by a low standard player could not be a factor in assessing a course in the worlds top 100.
Sean replied to this more politely than I would have done.  The last sentence is rubbish IMHO.
Mark- Think about it. Some of the great courses have holes across oceans, dramatic carries, a course should be assessed from the back tees and from those a course may be unplayable for a low standard golfer, by all means put in forward tees alternative routes around the trouble but those dont come into the reckoning when you rate the thing. You cant honestly give something a plus because it contains none of those things, we are talking about the worlds top 100 for gods sake.
Adrian,

A course should be assesses as a whole, for everyone.  It's simply wrong, INO, to say it must be assessed from the back tees.  I'm all for heroic carries but there's no reason that using multiple tees those can't be made available for all (reasonable) players.  Alternatively, give the weaker player an easier option which takes par out of play (or makes it harder).  This isn't rocket science and lots of great courses manage it.  TOC must, surely, be the poster child for courses accessible by all.  I've never played at CPC so haven't seen the heroic 16th but can't the weaker player go left and have a much shorter carry?

I'm not saying there shouldn't be forced carries.  I'm not saying courses shouldn't be hard.  What I'm saying (and I think Sean is, too) is that to be great a course should allow weaker players (not complete hackers but weaker golfers) to get round and be challenged.  A course that mandates forced carries of 200 yds+ (and the cut off is probably less than that, to be honest) off the tee and provides no option for the weaker player is not and cannot be a great golf course.

I'm a 12 handicapper, so not a top player by any means.  I have thoroughly enjoyed rounds at Muirfield (on several occasions), Carnoustie (when I was a 17 handicapper), Wolf Run and many other "tough" courses.  At Carnoustie and Wolf Run I struggled against handicap but still enjoyed the game enormously because I could get my ball round and enjo the challenges the course set (and even overcome a few of those challenges).  It's not impossible to design tough courses for scratch players that teen handicappers can enjoy.  It's not easy, either, I'll admit.  To be great, however, a course should achieve that aim.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #88 on: December 07, 2008, 04:35:55 AM »
I also believe that a course should be judged by it all round appeal. I also think you can only truely judge a course on your own impression of the course. If courses were judged by a pannel of players which had an average cross section of ability then PV would probably not make the top 10 courses and TOC would (IMHO).

Do you rate PB as highly as did before you played it, after you played it? If not then wasn't it your personal experience that led to this change? People are always going to judge courses on personal experience and therefor on their ability to play the course.

Paul Nash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #89 on: December 07, 2008, 06:14:15 AM »
I agree with most of what Sean said, probably all, but I can't remember all the points as there were so many! I think that history and prestige definitely tip the scale favourably when ranking a course, as does championship status. I think this is wrong. I have played a lot of good heathland courses in the past four years, mainly as a panellist with golf monthly but also on work events. It was hard to get perspective at first and many of the scores I gave early on were with little knowledge of comparing similar standard courses - so the ratings, while not wrong (although I think what I mentioned above influenced my unintentionally), will change a bit if I rated them now. What I am finding is that there is more charm and interest in some of the lower ranked courses than the more premier tracks - now does that make them better? A case in point: I was really excited about playing Wentworth and I am sure that the fact that i got a few complimentary rounds, especially early on, probably influenced my rating. Now, I would rate the West course near the bottom of the Surrey/ Berks league as I think many of the other courses are better. It is here that I think difficulty/ prestige/ history tips the balance in favour of some courses when it shouldn't, as I scored Wentworth better, with hindsight, than I should have.

Similarly with championship tracks - I have never played the Belfry but from what I have heard, it is not that great - from everyone I know who has played the Belfry and my home course Bearwood Lakes, not one person who rate the Belfry as anywhere near as good. Indeed, I love playing at Bearwood, so I would vote that it should be in the list because I rate it as the best example of a parkland (with some heathland characteristics) course that I have played, and it is only going to get better as there has been no architectural changes since it was built in 1995 and, if they ever get around to it, they are going to get the architect back to suggest improvements over the next 10 years, to run alongside ecological, machinery replacement and other plans they have. I personally think that Bearwood is a much better course and more enjoyable experience than Wentworth, and I think that is another reason to for it to be nominated.

I think you get the best idea of what makes a good course by reading other people's honest unprompted views (i.e. not a pannelist) - that is why I read all the reviews on top 100 courses - it is here that I learned about interesting courses like Beau Desert, Whittington Heath, Ipswich, Sherwood Forrest, Southerndown, Bovey Castle, Broadstone, East Devon, Ashridge, Woodbridge, Thorpness, Delamere Forest, Sandiway, Seaton Carew, Berwick-upon-Tweed, Leetham Grange, Spey Valley and others that are generally outside most rankings but sound like they could be just as good as many higher ranked peers - and they are on my must play list. By reading these reviews, you also get good impressions about what highly ranked courses tend to disappoint - Wentworth West, Belfry, Troon etc.

I think someone will come away with a worse impression of a course ranked in the top 30 than if it were near the 200-rank, simply because their expectations are undershot, compared to if it were a "gem", then they may have been exceeded - but even so, would the fact that it was rated higher initially tip the balance by subconsciously making you believe that you have missed things and influence you push up your ratings? I think it impacted me more when I had played less courses - I now don't think it would, but you can never tell.

Jim Nugent

Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #90 on: December 07, 2008, 07:54:54 AM »
Jon- I think the number of 10s, or 9s or whatever given to a course will show the truth worth. A minority opinion ie a low vote gets disregarded. A golf course playable by a low standard player could not be a factor in assessing a course in the worlds top 100.
Sean replied to this more politely than I would have done.  The last sentence is rubbish IMHO.

Mark (and Sean), how would you rate Pine Valley? 

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #91 on: December 07, 2008, 08:07:23 AM »
II think however that my brother in law would have no chance on his best day of shooting a round with which he would be happy and so he would not have it high up on his best courses list.

Jon W,

Sorry but that's just crazy.  I've been lucky enough over 30 years to have played PVGC dozens ot times - my best friend happens to be a member.   As a teens handicapper I have been in the 80s a handful of times at PVGC, but I've also had two rounds in the mid 120s.  It was the best course for my the first round I played there (and hadn't seen many of the world's greatest) and remains so after I've seen 3/4 of the world's best and nearly 1000 other courses.   

Reducing your assessment of a course because you played poorly is like reducing your assessment of Chinese food in a gourmet Chinese restaurant because you didn't know how to use chopsticks.

JC

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #92 on: December 07, 2008, 08:22:21 AM »
I think much depends on the definition of a low standard golfer. I would probably define that as below 24 handicap. Yes the 16th at CP has a bail out left, what about the 17th at Sawgrass, surely the 17th is a plus in making Sawgrass a great course, if it is then a low standard player could be there all day. With no alternative route is that a minus?
I played PGA west when I was a 3 handicapper, it gave me a headache as it was so tough, but I still thought it was good, just too tough for me. Equally I can like courses that are easy. I Dont like courses any
more if I played well or badly, infact I am probably more interested in the course than how I play, I also look at a course that is in not so good condition, and imagine what it is like in better nick.
I fully agree that many courses get artificially jacked up in the ratings because we are almost educated to like them. Wentworth v Sunningdale if you poll this forum would be an overwhelming win for Sunningdale, yes there are some great Surrey heathlanders...perhaps if Wentworth was ranked number 200 rather than 20 we would look at Wentworth's positive bits and champion the 2nd green, the dip in the 5th, the toughness of 9, the bunkering at 11 ect, ect.
I tend to like what I see, I like reasonable fairness and I like reasonable challenge. I have seen some shocking mistakes in modern golf courses often by golf professionals/ designers that simply do not have the agronomic or greenkeeping background to understand contouring that is actually impossible to play.
What I think is a fact though, the general public mainly like to be members of easier courses whilst for days away/ treats they like to play difficult ones, the masses also like lakes, fountains, buggies and deep shades of green, but thats another can of worms.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 08:25:34 AM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #93 on: December 07, 2008, 08:34:26 AM »

Adrian,

A course should be assesses as a whole, for everyone.  It's simply wrong, INO, to say it must be assessed from the back tees.  I'm all for heroic carries but there's no reason that using multiple tees those can't be made available for all (reasonable) players.  Alternatively, give the weaker player an easier option which takes par out of play (or makes it harder).  This isn't rocket science and lots of great courses manage it.  TOC must, surely, be the poster child for courses accessible by all.  I've never played at CPC so haven't seen the heroic 16th but can't the weaker player go left and have a much shorter carry?

I'm not saying there shouldn't be forced carries.  I'm not saying courses shouldn't be hard.  What I'm saying (and I think Sean is, too) is that to be great a course should allow weaker players (not complete hackers but weaker golfers) to get round and be challenged.  A course that mandates forced carries of 200 yds+ (and the cut off is probably less than that, to be honest) off the tee and provides no option for the weaker player is not and cannot be a great golf course.

I'm a 12 handicapper, so not a top player by any means.  I have thoroughly enjoyed rounds at Muirfield (on several occasions), Carnoustie (when I was a 17 handicapper), Wolf Run and many other "tough" courses.  At Carnoustie and Wolf Run I struggled against handicap but still enjoyed the game enormously because I could get my ball round and enjo the challenges the course set (and even overcome a few of those challenges).  It's not impossible to design tough courses for scratch players that teen handicappers can enjoy.  It's not easy, either, I'll admit.  To be great, however, a course should achieve that aim.
[/quote] I think its becoming tougher to design courses that ALL standards will like, mainly because of the difference that people hit the ball. I know some good players that dont want to play some ofthe older courses in an around the city because they are so short and comprise too many drive and wedge holes.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jay Cox

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #94 on: December 07, 2008, 01:17:29 PM »
I nominate the Ross course at French Lick Springs.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #95 on: December 07, 2008, 01:48:49 PM »
Surely the greatest challenge for an architect is to design a course that is both fun and challenging for every class of player.  Therefore, a course that fails to provide fun and challenge for every class of player is a flawed design, a poverty of imagination and talent.  The greatest fun for the greatest number is the goal.

This explains why as a category links courses are the highest expression of design, and why inland golf, whose designs often must sacrifice fun for challenge or vice versa, and / or sacrifice the fun or challenge for one ability of golfer in favor of another, are a lesser form of design.

As far as generalizations go, this one's truer than most.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #96 on: December 07, 2008, 06:09:05 PM »
Surely the greatest challenge for an architect is to design a course that is both fun and challenging for every class of player.  Therefore, a course that fails to provide fun and challenge for every class of player is a flawed design, a poverty of imagination and talent.  The greatest fun for the greatest number is the goal.

This explains why as a category links courses are the highest expression of design, and why inland golf, whose designs often must sacrifice fun for challenge or vice versa, and / or sacrifice the fun or challenge for one ability of golfer in favor of another, are a lesser form of design.

As far as generalizations go, this one's truer than most.
No
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

henrye

Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #97 on: December 08, 2008, 12:04:35 AM »
Nominations will close Monday night.

Ian, I don't think Tom Doak spent much time compiling his list for Canada, Mexico & the Carribean.

In Canada, you could probably limit the courses to the top 10 on the list of the top canadian courses in the "In My Opinion" piece.  You can remove #10 (Eagle's Nest and replace it with Redtail).  I think that's probably a good list of Canadian nominations even though only 2 or 3 will likely qualify as top 100.

For Mexico, I only know of a few potentials deserving of nominations - Cabo Ocean, Cabo Desert, Tamarindo, Isla Navidad and Tres Vidas.

In the Carribean, courses`like Abaco Club, Lyford Cay, Port Royal, The White Witch, and the Four Seasons, Nevis should probably be removed from the list - no way they come near the top 100.

Ian_L

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #98 on: December 08, 2008, 12:10:17 AM »
Hi Henry,

Thanks for your insight.  I will add Cabo Desert, Tamarindo, Isla Navidad, and Tres Vidas to the nominations list (Redtail is already on the list).  Hopefully that covers all your nominations.

We are not taking any courses off the list to avoid further work and confusion.

Sean_A

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Re: Nominate Courses for Top 100 in the World
« Reply #99 on: December 08, 2008, 01:59:08 AM »
Surely the greatest challenge for an architect is to design a course that is both fun and challenging for every class of player.  Therefore, a course that fails to provide fun and challenge for every class of player is a flawed design, a poverty of imagination and talent.  The greatest fun for the greatest number is the goal.

This explains why as a category links courses are the highest expression of design, and why inland golf, whose designs often must sacrifice fun for challenge or vice versa, and / or sacrifice the fun or challenge for one ability of golfer in favor of another, are a lesser form of design.

As far as generalizations go, this one's truer than most.
No

Adrian

I agree, as a goal, it doesn't have to be the idea of making a course playable for all (all nearly all).  However, can you name a better architectural goal for an archie?  There can't be too many courses out there that kick pros butt and are truly great.  Sure, we have a raft of so called greats that kick butt, but are they really or is it just low cap/pro bias skewing the perception of what great is? 

I have a feeling we are never going to agree on this - which is why its a good idea to have well traveled players of all abilities in on these things or lists would really be more about 100 Most Difficult Courses.  As I said before, imo, I can't think of anything more boring than this.

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 05:22:41 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Chechesee Creek & Old Barnwell

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