Torrey Pines vs Cape Kidnappers

[Michael Blake]

I've been reading my interlibrary-loaned copy of The Confidential Guide and thought this was interesting regarding TP:

"Until I saw Torrey Pines, if someone had called me and told me they wanted to build a golf course on clifftops overlooking the Pacific Ocean, I'd have thought I had it made.  But it turns out that if the cliffs are of a certian height, you don't dare get too close to them, and all you can build is a fairly dull layout with a view."

CK looks to be a much more extreme site than TP.

Wondering if Tom has changed his opinion or can provide insight as to how he and his team approached the project to not become "a fairly dull layout with a view."   

[Tom_Doak]

Well, for one thing, we did get right up to the cliffs at Cape Kidnappers several times.  And the property had a lot of cool inland features to use, too, because the ravines (sometimes filled with trees) ran so far back into the site.

In Ron Whitten's review of Torrey Pines before the Open, he mentioned something I'd never considered ... Billy Bell didn't have shots playing over the edge of the ravines at Torrey because the ravines were not technically part of the property, so he avoided that for safety reasons.  And that's a lot of the reason Torrey was disappointing to me.

I don't recall anyone going to Cape Kidnappers who's described it as "a fairly dull layout with a view."

[Michael Blake]

Thanks Tom.  That clarifies things a bit.

I wasn't implying that CK IS a "fairly dull layout with a view."  I thought that because the cliffs are so high "one wouldn't dare get close to them" was part of the reason TP was "a fairly dull layout with a view."

But the cliffs at CK are higher, yet you get close to them on a number of occassions, which is antithetical to the opinion that "one wouldn't dare get too close to them" in your TP review.


I interpreted your TCG reivew, which I boldfaced, that if cliffs are so dangerously high, it'd be foolish to get too close to them, which in turn would lead to a fairly dull layout with a view.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your position on getting too close to cliffs.

[Peter Ferlicca]

When Rees Jones went in there to redesign it for the Open, he brought 3 green, 4 fairway and green, 6 fairway, 13 tee, and 14 green as close to the cliffs as possible.  The factor that makes Torrey Pines look dull to the eye is because most of the holes are dead straight.  If Rees would have changed some normal holes like 2, 5, 9, 10, 15, 17, 18 to have some character in them it would be a much different golf course.  You are not asked to hit many creative shots at Torrey Pines other than the straight one.  I still feel that if you had someone go in and just change up the bunkers a tad to give them a more natural look like what he did at Bethpage it would be much better.

[Kenny Baer]

I believe Tom Doak describes Torrey very well; a rather benign golf course with a great view; that is exactly what it is.  After camping out all night about 6-7 years ago to play it I was very dissapointed.  I expected to be playing a golf course like Pebble Beach with holes that took you right out to the cliffs edge, instead  I got a decent golf course that overlooked a great property; I left Torrey feeling underwhelmed as to where I could not imagine leaving CK the same way. 

From what I have seen of CK it is the exact opposite; a facinating, almost vertigo inducing golf course that takes you takes you right to the edge.  It seems to be the exact opposite of Torrey; one could almost argue that it is too extreme if their is such a thing.

[Kenny Baer]

I've been reading my interlibrary-loaned copy of The Confidential Guide and thought this was interesting regarding TP:

"Until I saw Torrey Pines, if someone had called me and told me they wanted to build a golf course on clifftops overlooking the Pacific Ocean, I'd have thought I had it made.  But it turns out that if the cliffs are of a certian height, you don't dare get too close to them, and all you can build is a fairly dull layout with a view."

CK looks to be a much more extreme site than TP.

Wondering if Tom has changed his opinion or can provide insight as to how he and his team approached the project to not become "a fairly dull layout with a view."   

What are you trying to insinuate with your above comments?  It comes across as though you have discovered something or discovered Doak in a hypicritical statement.  It comes across as though you are trying to say that either CK is dull or they weren't safe while trying to build CK.  I don't get it.

[Sean Leary]

I've been reading my interlibrary-loaned copy of The Confidential Guide and thought this was interesting regarding TP:

"Until I saw Torrey Pines, if someone had called me and told me they wanted to build a golf course on clifftops overlooking the Pacific Ocean, I'd have thought I had it made.  But it turns out that if the cliffs are of a certian height, you don't dare get too close to them, and all you can build is a fairly dull layout with a view."

CK looks to be a much more extreme site than TP.

Wondering if Tom has changed his opinion or can provide insight as to how he and his team approached the project to not become "a fairly dull layout with a view."   

What are you trying to insinuate with your above comments?  It comes across as though you have discovered something or discovered Doak in a hypicritical statement.  It comes across as though you are trying to say that either CK is dull or they weren't safe while trying to build CK.  I don't get it.

I totally disagree. He is just asking how Tom was able to build a golf course so close to the cliffs when Torrey could not have been built that way.

[Michael Blake]

I've been reading my interlibrary-loaned copy of The Confidential Guide and thought this was interesting regarding TP:

"Until I saw Torrey Pines, if someone had called me and told me they wanted to build a golf course on clifftops overlooking the Pacific Ocean, I'd have thought I had it made.  But it turns out that if the cliffs are of a certian height, you don't dare get too close to them, and all you can build is a fairly dull layout with a view."

CK looks to be a much more extreme site than TP.

Wondering if Tom has changed his opinion or can provide insight as to how he and his team approached the project to not become "a fairly dull layout with a view."   

What are you trying to insinuate with your above comments?  It comes across as though you have discovered something or discovered Doak in a hypicritical statement.  It comes across as though you are trying to say that either CK is dull or they weren't safe while trying to build CK.  I don't get it.

I totally disagree. He is just asking how Tom was able to build a golf course so close to the cliffs when Torrey could not have been built that way.

Thank you for answering Sean.  That's exactly what I was asking, though it may not have read like it.

[Kenny Baer]

Sorry; I just saw it the wrong way.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Kidnappers is nothing like Torrey.  Do the old "Hawaii" test on both courses and see what you get.  Strip the views away and at CK you are left with a diverse and fascinating course.  Do the same at Torrey and you are left with a fairly ordinary muni.  A much better and closer comparison would be to compare Torrey to Kauri.

JC