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Bill_McBride

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27 Hole Courses
« on: December 03, 2008, 11:58:55 AM »
Are there any 27 hole courses where the three nines can be played in such a way that there is a cohesive, interesting routing no matter which of the three you play?

Peter Herreid mentioned in another thread that Shalee is 27 holes.  I played the second and third nines at Pa-ako Ridge earlier this year and found the experience to be no where as good as the original front and back nines. 

What do you all think about 27 hole courses?  Any examples where it works?  Where it doesn't?

Tom Huckaby

Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2008, 12:01:46 PM »
First example that comes to mind is Poppy Ridge, Livermore, CA.

I used to kinda like this course.  The more I've played it though the less I like it.

But it is 27 holes, and it doesn't tend to matter much which two nines you play.

I'd guess that's gonna be the case at any place where 27 holes were designed initially (as this one was).... add-ons of extra 9s are always going to be problematic.


Matt_Ward

Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2008, 12:11:27 PM »
Ridgewood CC in Paramus, NJ -- works very well.

Ditto Old Westbury on Long Island.

Both of the above are private ...

Spring Lake in Middle Island, NY has 27 public holes. Also quite good.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2008, 12:15:22 PM »
Peninsula Lakes (Fenwick) and Royal Niagara (Niagara On The Lake) in Niagara, Ontario, Canada, fit the bill.  Thistle down in North Carolina is also quite fine.
Coming in 2024
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Kyle Henderson

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2008, 12:16:18 PM »
Poppy Ridge sprang to my mind as well. Cinnabar Hills also has fairly equitable 9s.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

John Kavanaugh

Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2008, 12:18:01 PM »
They never work unless one nine is clearly identified as the bastard.

Tom Huckaby

Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2008, 12:19:42 PM »
Poppy Ridge sprang to my mind as well. Cinnabar Hills also has fairly equitable 9s.

GREAT CALL!  And jeez how stupid of me to forget what has to be my second home course... yes, it works very well at Cinnabar.  But again, that's a course with three nines designed straight from the start.


Jim Tang

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2008, 12:19:52 PM »
Black Sheep Golf Club located 40 miles west of Chicago is a 27 hole layout that has the same design philosophy and feel throughout.  I've spent the past two summers working there as a caddie.

The layout was built on rolling farmland and has no houses bordering the property.  Each of the three nines have huge, wide fairways.  The bunkers have ragged edges and the grass about the bunkers is grown long with lots of snarls.  Off the fairways and first cut of rough, the native grasses are grown to waist high.  The green complexes are well bunkered and have many subtle slopes.  The greens are large and typically viewed as some of the best greens in Chicagoland, simply because Black Sheep gets very little play and the super does a great job.  The entire site has a seemless feel and flows very nicely together from the first hole to the last.

On the other hand, Bay Harbor up in Michigan is a good example, I think, of a 27 hole facility that has three totally different nines; Links, Quarry and Preserve.  I am not a big fan of golf courses like this, which have polar opposite personalities from one nine to the next.  I like to see more common features so that I feel like I am playing one golf course, rather than three.

Kalen Braley

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2008, 12:21:23 PM »
There is a Johnny Miller course here in SLC called StoneBridge that has 3 9's that work pretty well also.  They rotate on a daily basis which two 9's are the "18 hole course" and the other one is left open for 9 hole play that day.

John Kavanaugh

Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2008, 12:22:56 PM »
How many course records does a 27 hole course have? 3 or 3!?

Rich Goodale

Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2008, 01:02:43 PM »
Sawgrass CC does it well, and while the E-W layout (ex-TPC) is the "classic" one, the South 9 is just as good and melds in well with either of the others.

Rob_Waldron

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2008, 01:09:41 PM »
Johnny Miller designed a 27-hole course in Leesburg, VA called Beacon Hill. The temporary clubhouse was relocated several times so the 18 holes in play varied every time I played it. It did not matter which combination of holes I played...they were all very good. Unfortunately the club experienced sever financial difficulties and is no longer open. Too bad, it was really a fun and challenging course.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2008, 01:16:59 PM »
The Wisley (RTJ Jnr) is pretty even whichever combination you play and in whichever order.

I personally didn't like the Van Hengel nine at Kennemer but I think Frank Pont may have improved it - they use holes from it in the Dutch Open.

Ash Towe

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2008, 01:21:00 PM »
I am a member of a 27 hole course.  In the constitution it states that each 9 is of similar difficulty, which is the case.
The best part about it is the variety.  When you book a round you cannot specify which course you will play.  Club management decides this on the day.  This actually works well once you get used to it.

CJ Carder

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2008, 01:34:09 PM »
I think Shephard's Hollow in Clarkson, MI works fairly well across all 27 holes.  It may be a bit different from side to side, but the 9's do a great job of winding throughout the forest and taking advantange of the elevation changes.

I don't remember it as well, but Hilton Head National seemed to be pretty decent too.

PCCraig

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2008, 01:46:44 PM »
TCC-Brookline

27 holes on the property, there is a "member" course and a "champ" course.
H.P.S.

Matt OBrien

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2008, 01:51:38 PM »
HVCC has 27 holes. The Flynn and Toomey nines are the origional 9's and the centennial was added as the third. The centennial nine is a great compliment to the other two as it is much harder yet maintains the same characteristics as the other two nines.

Bill_McBride

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2008, 01:58:28 PM »
Sounds like feelings toward 27 hole courses are pretty much supportive and enthusiastic.

I take it all back!

Dave_Miller

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2008, 02:03:19 PM »
TCC-Brookline

27 holes on the property, there is a "member" course and a "champ" course.

Pat:
The Championship course is a composite course that is not available for daily play and is only used for Major Championships.  The 18 Hole "Member" course you refer to is the Clyde course.  The other 9 hole course is the Primrose course.
Best
Dave

Jon Terbell

Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2008, 02:03:29 PM »
First course that comes to mind is the 27 holes at Hartford Golf Club (CT). Definitely my favorite in the area. I've never played them all consecutively, but would definitely be a unique experience as any nine can be paired with any other and many architects (Ross, Emmett...) had their hand in all over the property.

Tom Huckaby

Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2008, 02:05:20 PM »
Bill:  I do think it turns on whether the third nine was part of the original design or was added later.  I do think it would be difficult to make it perfectly cohesive and work well with an added third nine; not impossible, heck for all I know some mentioned here might be that way - but difficult.  Of course also the more one has played a place as an 18 hole course and then later plays one nine with a different nine (as you did at Paa-Ko) the less likely he is to accept it unless the new nine is really really well done.

So you do ask good questions and need not take it back.  People here are just mentioning where it works, which is what you asked for.  I have to believe there are many cases also where it doesn't really work.

TH

mike_beene

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2008, 02:05:50 PM »
I don't like them at all.It becomes a collection of holes and not a golf course.Works at Southern Hills where there is no question where the golf course is.The three nines concept has always bugged me.

Dave_Miller

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2008, 02:06:15 PM »
Are there any 27 hole courses where the three nines can be played in such a way that there is a cohesive, interesting routing no matter which of the three you play?

Peter Herreid mentioned in another thread that Shalee is 27 holes.  I played the second and third nines at Pa-ako Ridge earlier this year and found the experience to be no where as good as the original front and back nines. 

What do you all think about 27 hole courses?  Any examples where it works?  Where it doesn't?

Bill:
Admirals Cove in Jupiter, Florida has 18 Holes on the East Course.  The West side or Golf Village has 27 holes and the course was designed as three nines.  So it works very well.
Best
Dave

Rob_Waldron

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2008, 02:08:58 PM »
"27 Holes" When 18 is not enough and 36 is just too much!

"27" Holes .... A built in Emergency 9

"27 Holes...Even your wife will understand you had to play them all!

Scott Sander

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2008, 02:14:53 PM »
Fox Hollow in Lakewood, Colorado has three nines of the same vintage over three rather different topographies.  Instead of going for unified, they went with diversified and the result is quite nice.  "The Links" is fairly good high desert faux links, "The Canyon" embraces the gulch it dives into, and "The Meadows" is straightforward parkland golf.

At worst, The Links suffers a bit for lack of originality.  The Canyon has one of the all-time dumb par 3's, but it also has in #5 a one of the best approach shots in Colorado.  The Meadows is simply solid.

So - they're far from similar but in their own way they -are- cohesive. You never get that feeling of getting stuck playing on the "step-sister" 9 and only half the "good" course that so often happens at 18 + 9 facilities.

That problem happens here in Indiana at Otter Creek and Eagle Creek - both public tracks that were once the gold standard but are lesser for their additions.  You can't even play the original 18 at Eagle Creek anymore.  In some ways the new holes at both are very good - unfortunately they just don't feel anything like the others.

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