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TEPaul

The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« on: December 02, 2008, 08:16:54 PM »
Looking at a few of the greens on I think the false front thread got me thinking about what the minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace on a green that's pinnable that anyone's aware of.

The reason I ask is because I know of some greens that have a pretty minimal percentage of total greenspace that's pinnable but unfortunately (for those greens and their clubs) that pinnable greenspace is often pretty confined to the same area and that's a problem because the green can't really offer much in the way of varied pin positions.

On the other hand, I know of some other greens that probably have a pretty low percentage of total greenspace that's pinnable but those pinnable areas are really spread out into perhaps 4-5 different and distinct green sections and that's plenty for pinnable rotation of distinctly varied pin positions.

The latter type might get into what we sometimes call "greens within a green" but that's a topic for another time. ;)

What are some of the greens of either type you're aware of that have the lowest percentage of total greenspace that's pinnable?

This is probably a question that the supers on here can answer best.

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2008, 08:22:56 PM »
Paging Rob Chestnut.

What % of #16 at Pasatiempo is pinnable at "today's" green speeds?
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2008, 08:32:17 PM »
I think for the sake of interest, variety and architecture, the super should understand that some greens may have less than optimal pinnable surface. It is part of the challenge of being a great superintendent, not only to maintain under less than ideal circumstances but also to understand the interaction of design and conditions.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

paul cowley

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Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2008, 08:36:52 PM »
Tom....I use 3000 to 3500 sq'....but it can go lower.

I've built 8000 sq'+ greens that might only have 3000' for pins, and I've built 4000 sq' greens where 3,500 sq' are pinable.

In Myrtle Beach I built two side by side greens on a short par three..... each were under 3000 sq', but each had about 1800 sq' that were pinable.

I guess I was trying something.......aim small...miss small....or something. ;)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 08:42:53 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

paul cowley

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Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2008, 08:39:35 PM »
BTW....I love you Joe!
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2008, 08:42:18 PM »
BTW....I love you Joe!

I know, but I just feel we need more quality time....

 :-*
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2008, 08:43:52 PM »

Our 2nd green (Langford 1930) has two pinnable areas. (circled)  Don't know the percentage but its as small as anything i've seen. Missing the green is death so you are shooting for the middle  a lot  anyway


Click for full size - Uploaded with plasq's Skitch

Kyle Harris

Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2008, 08:47:16 PM »
I think there are 2, maybe 3 pinnable areas on Schuylkill Country Club's 4th green - though this may have been slightly softened in the past few years.

TEPaul

Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2008, 08:52:15 PM »
“BTW....I love you Joe!”


“I know, but I just feel we need more quality time....”   :-*



HEY, are you two sluts trying to make me jealous or something?

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2008, 08:56:42 PM »
BTW....I love you Joe!

I know, but I just feel we need more quality time....

 :-*

You know more than anyone...its been tough.

I get emails that I'm not serious enough....that I should act my age and my position as a ASGCA member....that I embarrass Ran and I'm hurting the image of the site....I've looked into buying a wholesale plumbing supply store, thinking it might help....but I just can't seem to pull the trigger....I'd probably end up hiring a cute counter girl and spend most of my time in a dark closet with a twelve pack......what's a guy to do?
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2008, 09:01:16 PM »
“BTW....I love you Joe!”


“I know, but I just feel we need more quality time....”   :-*



HEY, are you two sluts trying to make me jealous or something?


No Tom ....you know I love you.

It's the kind of love I didn't feel I had to scream out in cyberspace!
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2008, 09:12:22 PM »
BTW....I love you Joe!

I know, but I just feel we need more quality time....

 :-*

You know more than anyone...its been tough.

I get emails that I'm not serious enough....that I should act my age and my position as a ASGCA member....that I embarrass Ran and I'm hurting the image of the site....I've looked into buying a wholesale plumbing supply store, thinking it might help....but I just can't seem to pull the trigger....I'd probably end up hiring a cute counter girl and spend most of my time in a dark closet with a twelve pack......what's a guy to do?

I'll tell ya what you do. The next time you get an email like that, let Joey The Nose handle it for you. I'll have them curling into the fetal position and they'll be whimpering about containment mounding and the lifespans of design features.
 
Then you let me take care of that counter girl.....


" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2008, 09:18:01 PM »
See.....now we get credit for blowing another good thread.

We have to learn boundaries!
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2008, 09:23:48 PM »
Paul:

If you're going to go down a road like that buy a retail plumbing store not a wholesale plumbing store. At least there's some wonderful unpredictablilty and a lot more laughs in a retail plumbing store.

If you need some instant bucking up listen to Satchemo sing and play "Come on Down to Duke's Place", as I am right now.

By the way, if you think I stick far too boringly to the mundane subjects of these threads, please do not hesitate to let me know.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 09:27:42 PM by TEPaul »

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2008, 09:28:37 PM »
I am wondering the "end game" of what TE is asking here.?.?.?

Do you want more or less pinnable area? (of course I am playing devil's advocate in asking)((I have an opinion!!))

It seems less pinnable area is usually a negative, that is unless interesting internal contours greatly increase the overall quality of the entire greens complex itself....

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Peter Pallotta

Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2008, 09:32:58 PM »
Tom - Joyous, isn't it? It's "C Jam Blues" with words added -- nothing words, really, but what Armstrong does with them (with voice and horn)...He's a master.

Re this thread. I'm sure it is very good and relevant topic, but I have no idea why. So I'll just suggest we think about The Old Course, shall we? (heh, heh..)

Peter 
« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 10:02:59 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Jack Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2008, 09:33:58 PM »
I don't know the actual square footage but several of the greens at Plainfield have very few pinnable areas, both because of their small size and severe slopes.

The first green while not small in size has such a severe slope that there are only two pin positions. This is the case with the 2nd, 10th, the very small 11th, and the 18th. Ross's great greens usually require the golfer to play a superb shot to get the ball close or use the slopes, both on and off the putting surface. Since Plainfield has a pretty substantial maintenance budget and a moderate number of rounds played, wear and tear isn't too much of an issue. I think these greens are some of the best on the course, requiring a lot of thought over each shot.
Jack Davis, PGA
Essex County Club

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2008, 09:38:19 PM »
....this is far worse than herding kittens....come on guys...think Golf...Golf...close your eyes and softly chant GOOOOLLFFFF on the out breath.....re focus....

What do you think is the minimum percentage of total greenspace that is pinnable?
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2008, 09:40:13 PM »
The end game of what I'm asking here??

We'll all probably know that when this thread hits the seventeenth page or Paul Cowley's wholesale plumbing store counter girl weighs in on the subject of the minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable after he's had a chance to mentor her in the back room and she's had the opportunity to seriously consider this important subject and form her own opinion!


Jeeesus, what is the world coming to? Right in the middle of typing this post I got another message on Skype---this time from Laney Sweet telling me: "Hey, tomepaul, this is Laney. now i'm looking for new friends. you can see my picture if you click here."

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2008, 09:41:46 PM »
It is an important topic, but it should be one of those things without absolutes......discuss!
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2008, 09:46:05 PM »
BTW....we love you too Peter!
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2008, 09:47:35 PM »
"What do you think is the minimum percentage of total greenspace that is pinnable?"

Paul:

It think on the 12th and 15th greens at Merion East the percentage of pinnable space to total greenspace at 13 on the stimp may be around 10-15% but at about 10.5-11 on the stimp it may be nearer 30-40%. Do you think that tells people anything that might be vaguely interesting or important? ;)

I'm just waiting for some green chairman to tell me he doesn't think he has enough pinnable space on some of his greens for 15.5 on the stimp and he's considering flattening those greens this year because it'd be cheaper than doing it about three years from now when he thinks he can actually get his greens to 15.5 on the stimp.

By the way, have you seen that video yet of that course in Florida that got a green to 17 plus on the stimp? I'm not kidding, they videoed the stimp reading.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 09:58:17 PM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2008, 10:06:29 PM »
No Tom....I havent...nor shall I.

Enjoying watching car wreck videos is something I refrain from unless I'm in a required DUI class.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2008, 10:09:12 PM »
Counter Girl is going to want a LOT more pinnable area than anyone here can offer her.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The minimum PERCENTAGE of total greenspace that's pinnable!?
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2008, 10:23:20 PM »
....but she's got to job interview first.

Come on guys....Golf ...Golf ...Golf....breath deep....Golf....Golf....
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

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