Your LA County top 5 public courses

[Joe Perches]

Yes, your the one that doesn't like Santa Anita or at the very least discounted it

Actually, I did select it as one of the top 5 public in LA county.

You'll actually be talking to former caddies who at one time weren't even allowed to play the course, but still to this day know it like the back of their hands. They are a plethora of information--and most, back up most of my observations of what once existed there in a different age. They hold the course sacred, and honestly, they are just as much the Gold.

I've played at Chester Washington with some of those old guys.
Elegantly dressed, and some very very good players.
One of them might still be the best lob chipper I've ever seen.
50 balls, 20 yards away, 20 feet up, 3 yard spread.
He also called out and executed 1 hop forward, dead stop, 3 yard rewind.
Wow.

Daniel Wexler wrote (incorrectly I believe), that the course went south of El Segundo Blvd.  I think it went into the Northrop plant west across Van Ness and into what's now the housing to the southwest.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/golf/la-sp-history9apr09,0,1740845.story

created a links that I feel at one time may have been some what inspired by Pine Valley, as well as other famous courses from the East Coast. the bones are there

Now you're just off the rails Tommy.  The land is soggy and soils have a significant clay percentage.  There are no holes that require a draw or fade off the tee.  No features around the greens that demand precision to get to pin placements.  No kick plates.  Featureless bunkering.  Flat greens.  It's not my idea of fun.

We're talking sandy, scrubby waste areas just off of tees that were loaded with cop bunkers and the like as well as some interestingly placed strategic green-side bunkering that can still be found lying dead and grassed over. The contours on the 16th green are a work of art; even in their top-dressed-to-death state.

The thread premise is "Your LA County top 5 public courses".

If Chester Washington is really one of your LA County top 5, you fear you must like forensic exams, rigor mortis, and probably necropsy as well.

Maybe one day you'll have to show me.

cheers, Joe

[David Stamm]

Another vote for Rec Park. I love the place. Very good bones and it feels like it was once a very special place in it's day, if you know what I mean. I haven't had the privilege of playing Santa Anita yet, but I've heard nothing but good things and plan on playing it with Tom in the next couple of weeks.

[R_Paulis]

R. Paulis - Rustic is indeed in Moorpark.  If you are forced to eat in Moorpark you might try Wood Ranch BBQ.  Not a bad spot.

Wood Ranch - the most convenient place for a relaxing post round recap. However, I am endlessly disappointed by the sweetness of their sauce. Not that sauce should be the sole determining factor...

[Jon Spaulding]

I've not played 5 of them yet. Gee, Tommy was right about my patheticnicity. (Emporer go easy here, no wife/kids/sporting goods/OC/Caddyshack jokes...invest equivalent energy into planning something during the week while at the same time giving me more than 4 hours notice )

1) Santa Anita
2) Brookside #1
3) Los Verdes

I had the itch to lose my Rec Park virginity tomorrow morning, but too busy watching the new Housewives episode tonight.

Palos Verdes GC with it's semi-public setup would be a strong 2nd if it would qualify. Even better, it's an all-out Thomas design; for the hat tells me so.

By reputation, I'm surprised that Rancho Park is not a top 5 choice for most.

[R_Paulis]

I always thought Simi was LA county, my bad.  

I believe Rustic is actually located in Moorpark. A town known for its lack of decent restaurants. Also in Ventura County.

Obviously you don't get to Rustic Canyon, or Moorpark very much.

Recently, Cafe Firenze has not only been celebrated with coverage on Bravo Network's Top Chef, where owner/head chef, is competing for the title of Top Chef. (Wednesday nights @ 10:00pm)

Also, Wood Ranch Grill is no slouch when it comes to great BBQ. You should try them some time.

Also, I'm of the opinion that any town that has an In-and-Out Burger has good dining. I know about 20 guys in the golf architecture business and around 50 participants of this website that would agree with me!

Well, well, it's nice to hear that Moorpark has finally got some recognition for its one decent restaurant. That dam hot dog place at the strip center on Princeton just wasn't cutting it. Oh, and how many strip malls and slop houses can one fit along LA Avenue.

Wood Ranch - sweet sauce drives me crazy!

I have eaten more than my share at In/Out. It's no White Castle - but what is?

As for Rustic play - well this year no, but since it has opened I am approaching 100 rounds. Not sure if I will ever get to the century club - too many other options closer to home.

Actually, I am sort of honored that my response warranted a comment by Mr. Naccarato even if it has little to do with GCA.

[R_Paulis]

Now R. Paulis, any relation to Billy?
Moorpark has a number of ordinary restaurants, however it also has
Secret Garden, one of Ventura County's top 5 restaurants.  Expensive French cuisine.
Sunset Terrace, one of Ventura County's best kept secrets.  Superb pasta dishes with the Sunday prime rib equaling most good prime rib places.
Cafe Firenze, fine Italian dining and a more than decent wine list and great appetizers.
Two Guys from Italy.  Outstanding German dishes in an Italian setting.  The owner's brother is a chef in Mittenwald, Germany, near the Austrian border and has trained Jose and Pedro how to prepare good Bavarian food.
Wood Ranch, fun and good anytime.
In and Out.
The Grinder, probably one of the top 5 restaurants for breakfast in Ventura County.

Tommy, stand your ground and don't back down!!

Lynn - thanks for the food recommendations. It's way too often that I am rushing back home after a round and not enjoying or learning about some of the finer establishments near Rustic. My playing partner and I will need to visit some of the above. Despite my ribbing about Wood Ranch I have eaten there often.

I do not know Billy Paulis. Supposedly, the surname was a derivative of a much longer Eastern European name made up upon entry at Ellis Island. So it's likely I am related to Billy in some fashion.

[Wayne Freeman]

  I live in Long Beach and grew up in West L.A.  Never even heard of Santa Anita so can't comment on it.  But I can tell you:

           Rancho Park is a terrific course to play- hosted the L.A. Open prior to Riviera...... only unknown is what kind of shape it is in.  A friend played there last week and said it was fine.

            Brookside #1.   Very strong approx 7000 layout with 4 par 4's at 425, one at 460 , and one at 480.  Flat,  but with a nice mix of holes and quite challenging.           

             Los Verdes..    in a beautiful spot and well worth the effort to get there.  Vicious greens that break in diabolical fashion.

            In Long Beach,  Rec Park is fun to play and has some character with nice poa greens that usually run about 10-11.   Too many very short holes,  but OK if you're in the area.  Eldorado is likewise a good course and a little more challenging.  Pretty narrow, so  hitting it in the fairway is paramount. 
 Before the redo,  we used to refer to Skylinks as "Skydump" .   The renovation added a bunch of fairway bunkers and undulating greens which are the only defense the course has.  Totally flat,  it would be pretty much last on my list of the courses mentioned above.

   Bear in mind that all of these courses can play extremely slow later in the morning and in the afternoon.  Best to get out before 7:30.
                               

[Tom Naccarato]

Never even heard of Santa Anita so can't comment on it.

Why does this not surprise me?

Seriously Wayne, you've heard of Friar's Head, 3,000 miles away from your doorstep, but you haven't heard of a course less then 30 miles away (by freeway) from your club in Seal Beach that sits near one of the most famous horse racing tracks in the country, if not the world?

Wayne, Please....Westside humor is completely flying over my head this evening!

Joe, What images have you seen of the course in its day? (I'm asking) I have seen an aerial, and it showed me a lot. More then some second hand guessing. You are correct, I posted Normandie, and it is in fact Van Ness. My bad. And yes, thats where the course went, across into Northrup. (Where the Flying Wing was first conceived and built.)

Yes, we'll go play there soon. VERY soon, maybe Friday noon if I can get off. (Could you make it?)

R-Paulis, White Castle?!?!?! You are joking right? Please tell me your joking....

Mike Cirba, Its great to be back!

Spaulds,
You go play Rec Park without me for your first time, and I'll never talk to you again. (Stamm, set him straight please)(Maybe we could do that instead Friday noon?)

I wish Mike Golden still lived in Long Beach......

[Jon Spaulding]

Never even heard of Santa Anita so can't comment on it.

Spaulds,
You go play Rec Park without me for your first time, and I'll never talk to you again. (Stamm, set him straight please)(Maybe we could do that instead Friday noon?)

Hmmmmmm......

I'll be in a dentists chair Friday morning....."might" be able to make it up there by noon. Either that or let's hit it early on a weekday morning next week. Send me an email so my groupies stay away.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Rancho Park.  The reason is doesn't get mentioned is.........

"Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded."
                                                      Yogi Berra

[Tom Naccarato]

Lynn,
Exactly...

Jon,
Good. I'll have my people contact your people to see if Friday is good. Invite the groupies. I like them.

[Joe Perches]

What images have you seen of the course in its day? (I'm asking) I have seen an aerial, and it showed me a lot.

Only aerial I've seen is from 1980.
CW was not much of a course that day either,
but at least it didn't have any silly concrete ponds.


Bigger picture and explorer: http://www.historicaerials.com/?poi=3140


Here's an aerial of a treeless(!) Rancho Park in 1953.


Bigger picture and explorer: http://www.historicaerials.com/?poi=3139

[Tom Huckaby]

What sucks for me is that although I am a native Angeleno (and we spit upon you Burbankians, Tommy - Queen of Angels Hospital was the glorious site of my birth), I can no longer honestly opine on this subject.  My home is indeed San Jose and has been for far longer now than was Los Angeles.  So as I think of these courses, in each case it's haven't played it for 10 years, 20 years, 30 years... dammit!  At one point I was a pretty darn good expert on the LA county public scene.

To that end, well... I did over the years likely play Chester Washington more than most.   Let's just say my opinion of it would side more with Joe than with Tommy.  Interesting place for sure - I'm sure the history is marvelous - but as it actually played, well... I have a hard time getting too excited about it.

BUT - take this with an ocean of salt - I haven't played it in at least 10 years.

SO.. some questions for the real LA experts:

any love for my former haunts Balboa, Encino, Hansen Dam, Knollwood?  I do have very fond memories of each.  I played Encino again a year ago and I thought it was darn good fun.  Not sure any would make a top five, especially given new courses... but is there any love for these?

BTW I also have great love for all the Griffith Park courses, but those have been covered already.

TH

[Pete Lavallee]

As a resident of San Pedro for 8 years in the 80's, I'm just like Tom, unable to add anything new to the conversation. I do regard Los Verdes as one of my favorite places, as it was my unofficial home course through that period. I do find some merit in the architecture due to my limited skills; I can see why better players like Lynn don't hold it in higher regard. On the odd round where you aren't searching for your 4 playing partners balls it presents an interesting test of reading greens which are benched into the hillside; Billy Bell Jr's brilliance or pure accident, who really knows? They have the same counter slope as the greens at Torrey North and these greens are difficult to read as it actually slopes against the overall hillslope; certainly 2 courses where plumb bobbing could help.

Sorry to hear about Skylinks; it was a perfectly functional muni with a really good set of poa annua greens. Green conditions were easily the best of the LB courses in those days. One must remember that in a City of 6M people you need courses where the beginer and novice can play to get ready for the big time; Skkylinks was perfect for that. Again, I'm sentimental as a round there was the first time I broke 80 on a par 72 course.

I also played alot at Victoria GC, which is right where the Goodyear Blimp lands at the 405 and 10; it was built on one of the largest industrial landfills in the Nation. They hard a hard time growing grass aanywhere off the greens; although they were pretty good because they were all built up from the native soil. There was a redo by the Palmer Group to try and cap the site and redesign it a few years ago; anyone have any information on how that project worked out? It is always windy there in the afternoons as the freeways channeled the wind quite nicely.

[rjsimper]

If the definition of public is that outside play is allowed, then Palos Verdes GC goes in my top 5 list.

In no particular order

Palos Verdes
Los Verdes
Rec Park, Rancho, Wilson, Harding...depending on the day, my ranking of these 4 good but underloved munis changes
Santa Anita (because many I trust say so...it's been 12 or so years since I played there but I recall enjoying it)

[Tim Leahy]

Great stuff guys! This is why I love this site. I like Huck lived in LA and played most of the muni's without knowing much about the history. As I said in the first post I will be in LA between 12-27 and 1-3 and would love to play a round at Chester Washington with Tommy and anybody else or at Santa Anita, Rec Park etc. IM me if your interested.

[Allan Long]

If you're going by LA County rather than the LA area:

1. Santa Anita
2. Los Verdes
3. Recreation Park
4. Griffith Park
5. Brookside

Honorable mention for atmosphere not necessarily architecture:
1. Armand Hammer
2. Catalina Island

Tommy N.,
I know it's a shock to you that neither Industry Hills offerings made my list. 
Seriously though, what are your thoughts on Lakewood and Knollwood?

[Tom Huckaby]

Allan - dare I believe we have another Knollwood appreciator?

Man I played there countless times as a kid... haven't played it in at least 25 years though.  Is is still there?  Is it any good?

I have fond memories of it for sure....

TH

[Allan Long]

Allan - dare I believe we have another Knollwood appreciator?

Man I played there countless times as a kid... haven't played it in at least 25 years though.  Is is still there?  Is it any good?

I have fond memories of it for sure....

TH

Tom,

Knollwood is still there. I'm in the same boat as you though, probably 25 years since I played there. Oddly enough, the one thing I remember is that they used to cut two holes in each green and they wanted every group to switch holes--drove me crazy. Played all those LA county courses in junior golf and haven't seen some of them in years. Some I remember better than others and a few I have played more recently when back in LA but I knew that our own Tommy N., would set me straight. 

[Tom Naccarato]

Sadly, I have never played Knollwood. That will have to be righted here soon. Also, I want to go play El Cariso which is very old Billy Bell. Originally called En Ramada La Cantada, from photos, it looks to be the Valley's Willowick, which would mean for most here, stay away, it isn't your type of course--too far from perfect, yet filled with some interesting bones that have slowly eroded over time.

I hope there is something still there to marvel over.

[Tom Huckaby]

Two holes in each green - that's right!   We had to lobby to NOT switch them for the high school matches.  Good times.

This is a cool trip down memory lane for each of us, huh?

Man I too want Tommy (or whoever else) to comment on these lesser lights of the LA public scene.  Of course Tommy did so re Chester Washington.. I wonder how much he has gotten out the valley... or if anyone else has played these?  Here's hoping....

Tommy - we crossed... re Knollwood, obviously we'd love to hear your thoughts if you do get out there... and El Cariso? Good god I feel old... your talking about its bones, man I played that course when it opened.  We are talking about the same course, right?  Executive course out in Sylmar or something?  Opened in 70s?  Sounds like we're not from what you wrote... but that's the El Cariso I remember...

You gotta play Hansen Dam also.  And each of Balboa and Encino.   
TH

[Tom Huckaby]

My memory works sometimes... I had El Cariso right.  Man we did a high school thing there right near when it opened... I found a reference to 1977 opening date, which works for my memory.

http://parks.co.la.ca.us/el_cariso.html

Is is the executive course in Sylmar I remembered.

Do the bones go back farther than 1977?

[Allan Long]

El Cariso is indeed that executive course in Sylmar, (Crossed again Tom) but I didn't realize it was a Bell. I too like Tom H. thought it was newer than that. I would be curious to hear Tommy's thoughts on how much Bell still exists after he sees the course.

As long as we're going down memory lane Tom, I'll throw out Alondra Park. Not a great course, but the first time I broke par in a tournament so it holds a special place.

[Allan Long]

.

[Tom Huckaby]

El Cariso is indeed that executive course in Sylmar, (Crossed again Tom) but I didn't realize it was a Bell. I too like Tom H. thought it was newer than that. I would be curious to hear Tommy's thoughts on how much Bell still exists after he sees the course.

As long as we're going down memory lane Tom, I'll throw out Alondra Park. Not a great course, but the first time I broke par in a tournament so it holds a special place.

LOVE IT!

Now please tell you you have also played Alhambra Muni.... 5300 yards of quirk to the max... a fine place to break par also.