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Tim Leahy

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Your LA County top 5 public courses
« on: December 02, 2008, 01:43:07 PM »
I used to live in LA and will be going back down between Christmas and New Years, and wondered about playing some good golf courses in LA County. What are your top 5 publics in LA County?
Here's my list:
1. Rustic Canyon-although I don't know the current conditions
2. Angeles National-I am bias since I got my only hole in one there.
3. Industry Hills-Ike-toughest public challenge, great conditions after redo
4. Malibu CC-enjoy the setting and used to play there alot in college
5. Rancho Park-don't know current conditions, but love the euc's
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Sam Maryland

Re: Your LA County top 5 public courses
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2008, 03:32:13 PM »
not sure if it's "LA County" proper but I think they did a very good job with Skylinks down in Long Beach...

Pat Burke

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Re: Your LA County top 5 public courses
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2008, 03:43:50 PM »
Here's my list of LA County's best public courses
1  Rustic Canyon  (haven't played it, but trust my resources ;))
2
3
4
5
There ya go

John Kavanaugh

Re: Your LA County top 5 public courses
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2008, 03:50:49 PM »
Pat,

I have played Rustic a few times and while it is great it has a sister in Santa Anita.  Given the views at Rustic and the audio delight of the track at Santa Anita I rate them as fantastic equals.

Tom Naccarato

Re: Your LA County top 5 public courses
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2008, 04:26:49 PM »
not sure if it's "LA County" proper but I think they did a very good job with Skylinks down in Long Beach...

If any of you have your audio turned-up on your computer and you here a rather large hammering sound, this is me hitting my head on my desk, back and forth, back and forth in both laughter and amazement of just how moribund Skylinks really is since the "remodel."

No offense, and not trying to embarrass, degrade, or downgrade your opinion. Please, tell us why--in description--the architecture of Skylinks, what makes it so worthy in this list of Top 5 courses in SoCal?

The original Skylinks was a sleepy little muni that entertained and charmed. What exists now is a plethora of golf holes that seemingly look like they were repeated one after another with little thought other then how much money this was going to make the host-architect...

Rustic Canyon, well its in Ventura County. It doesn't fit your question.

Here are mine with reasons why:

1. Santa Anita (John, I was trying to keep this one a secret!)-Architecture, sounds, etc.
2. Recreation Park-ARCHITECTURE
3. Los Verdes-View
4. Chester "The Molester" Washington-ARCHITECTURE
5. Griffith Park-Wilson-ARCHITECTURE

John Kavanaugh

Re: Your LA County top 5 public courses
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2008, 04:36:01 PM »

1. Santa Anita (John, I was trying to keep this one a secret!)-Architecture, sounds, etc.


Don't worry Tommy, the group that hangs around here these days wouldn't put up with the wait or the Koreans.

Tim Leahy

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Re: Your LA County top 5 public courses
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2008, 04:36:25 PM »
I always thought Simi was LA county, my bad.  :o
Tom, I have played and enjoyed the other publics on your list, but not Chester Washington. I had always heard it was just a flat muni. Please enlighten me on CW architecture features and history. ???
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: Your LA County top 5 public courses
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2008, 05:04:55 PM »
John, don't forget the Japanese. :D
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Sam Maryland

Re: Your LA County top 5 public courses
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2008, 05:59:45 PM »
not sure if it's "LA County" proper but I think they did a very good job with Skylinks down in Long Beach...

If any of you have your audio turned-up on your computer and you here a rather large hammering sound, this is me hitting my head on my desk, back and forth, back and forth in both laughter and amazement of just how moribund Skylinks really is since the "remodel."

No offense, and not trying to embarrass, degrade, or downgrade your opinion. Please, tell us why--in description--the architecture of Skylinks, what makes it so worthy in this list of Top 5 courses in SoCal?

The original Skylinks was a sleepy little muni that entertained and charmed. What exists now is a plethora of golf holes that seemingly look like they were repeated one after another with little thought other then how much money this was going to make the host-architect...

Rustic Canyon, well its in Ventura County. It doesn't fit your question.

Here are mine with reasons why:

1. Santa Anita (John, I was trying to keep this one a secret!)-Architecture, sounds, etc.
2. Recreation Park-ARCHITECTURE
3. Los Verdes-View
4. Chester "The Molester" Washington-ARCHITECTURE
5. Griffith Park-Wilson-ARCHITECTURE

Skylinks - my main reason is because I enjoy playing it, if that's ok to do.  it's a fun course, accessible, pace of play is reasonable.  I like the look of a lot of the holes and recovery is possible.  some decent beer on tap, people are nice.  they grill a nice burger outdoors a lot of days.  (I never played it before the reno)

others I like to play include:

Los Verdes - fun to play, go early (mentioned that before here, was told "there's nothing architecturally significant about the course")

Rec Park - fun to play, go early

Eldorado - fun to play, seems like it's always slow now

the two times we went to C. Washington the pace of play was so abysmal that we don't go back.

so Tim, if "fun" is on your agenda there are a few ideas.

(I'm not from SoCal so have only played about 10 courses total in the area over time, these are the ones I go back to when there)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 06:10:14 PM by Sam Maryland »

Joe Perches

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Re: Your LA County top 5 public courses
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2008, 06:30:42 PM »
1. Santa Anita (John, I was trying to keep this one a secret!)-Architecture, sounds, etc.
2. Recreation Park-ARCHITECTURE
3. Los Verdes-View
4. Chester "The Molester" Washington-ARCHITECTURE
5. Griffith Park-Wilson-ARCHITECTURE

Chester Washington?

http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=33.920331,-118.313903&spn=0.00519,0.012338&z=17
http://chesterwashington.americangolf.com/

What is possibly interesting about CW?  The short par 3 next to the housing?  The short par 3 behind the driving range?  The short opener?  The trees?  The water fountain?  The unknown architect?  The changes to the course layout over time?

The par 3 course at Alondra is better architecture.  It's flatter and drains better than CW too.

I'd substitute Los Verdes and Western/ChesterWashington with Angeles National and Robinson Ranch Valley.

R_Paulis

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Re: Your LA County top 5 public courses
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2008, 06:38:06 PM »
I always thought Simi was LA county, my bad.  :o

I believe Rustic is actually located in Moorpark. A town known for its lack of decent restaurants. Also in Ventura County.

Joe Perches

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Tim Book

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Re: Your LA County top 5 public courses
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2008, 08:01:46 PM »
R. Paulis - Rustic is indeed in Moorpark.  If you are forced to eat in Moorpark you might try Wood Ranch BBQ.  Not a bad spot.

How about Trump National for an LA County course?  It is not my favorite track, but would return there before Los Verdes.

Tom Naccarato

Re: Your LA County top 5 public courses
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2008, 08:31:04 PM »
I always thought Simi was LA county, my bad.  :o

I believe Rustic is actually located in Moorpark. A town known for its lack of decent restaurants. Also in Ventura County.


Obviously you don't get to Rustic Canyon, or Moorpark very much.

Recently, Cafe Firenze has not only been celebrated with coverage on Bravo Network's Top Chef, where owner/head chef, is competing for the title of Top Chef. (Wednesday nights @ 10:00pm)

You can check out the restaurant on their website: http://www.cafefirenze.net/home.cfm

From his bio:
Fabio is the Owner and Executive Chef of Café Firenze Italian Restaurant and Martini Bar, one of the most recognized restaurants in Ventura County. Born and raised in Florence, Italy, he has traveled across Europe and is trained in classic Italian and Mediterranean cuisine. He incorporates Italian, French and Spanish influences in his dishes and believes that cooking is a craft. He is currently working on opening the Firenze4Kids Foundation, which will emphasize the promotion of health and wellness for kids through good nutrition and will also launch kidshealthcafe.com, the largest informative resource library available online, designed to enhance a healthy and safe lifestyle for children. Additionally, Fabio also works as William Shatner's private chef.

Also, Wood Ranch Grill is no slouch when it comes to great BBQ. You should try them some time.

Also, I'm of the opinion that any town that has an In-and-Out Burger has good dining. I know about 20 guys in the golf architecture business and around 50 participants of this website that would agree with me! ;)

On to the next guy....

Joe, Yes, your the one that doesn't like Santa Anita or at the very least discounted it. Honestly, I think that's says it all, but you owe it to yourself to look a little closer again. Santa Anita is a hidden gem. (I hope your doing well by the way!)

There is no doubt in my mind how poor of quality of turf conditions can get sometimes at "The Molester." The superintendent probably did deserve a medal, of not some recognition for that amount of crew for two courses and the amount of money he was given for a course that purportedly gets 120,000+ rounds a year. (Didn't someone on this website already prove that figure close to impossible? ::)) Still it is impressive--and stupid. (and people wonder why these courses are a shadow of their former designs.)

The one thing you don't hear the superintendent talking about is the history and most, the architecture of Chester Washington, pre-Western Avenue; where two men-- a developer named R.C. Noble and a former UCLA legacy, turned LA High School Principle, C.C. Hollingsworth, who would go on to be the owner and developer of San Diego's Singing Hills Golf Course--created a links that I feel at one time may have been some what inspired by Pine Valley, as well as other famous courses from the East Coast. the bones are there. They are undeniable. However in this modern day, not worthy--all because of being cost prohibitive.

And thats a shame.

I've posted before images of the course's "Chasm"/"Biarritz hole which is now part of the approach to the 14th, and is in fact, easily recoverable. But there are other golf holes of incredible panache, just in somewhat more run down shape; areas grassed over, which were obviously at one time part of a more alluring nature. We're talking sandy, scrubby waste areas just off of tees that were loaded with cop bunkers and the like as well as some interestingly placed strategic green-side bunkering that can still be found lying dead and grassed over. The contours on the 16th green are a work of art; even in their top-dressed-to-death state.

Don't expect to see a lot of quality golf on the first four holes. It isn't there. Architecturally, these holes aren't bad holes, but more out of character with what once existed there and more then likely the reason why the course gets such lack of respect. (beyond the maintenance issues that so many seem to complain about, and that I have never really experienced) The original holes--which you can still see part of the 3rd, lying fallow out in the driving range, went due west and crossed what is now Normandie Blvd. way before Normandie, or any road existed there.

I could go on and on; but mostly, I will tell you that some of you are blind to what at once existed there. You just can't see it, as well as the history that has occurred there. (Joe Louis, when he lived at one time in LA, was once a regular here; this is where he and many other great athletes once called their home course. Babe Ruth, also played there on many occasions on visits out west) The place was a proverbial gold mine in its day--and certainly another missing link in Southern California's once great golfing past.

One of the greatest thing a golfer; or for the most part, a history buff like myself can do is talk to the older members. At "The Molester," You'll actually be talking to former caddies who at one time weren't even allowed to play the course, but still to this day know it like the back of their hands. They are a plethora of information--and most, back up most of my observations of what once existed there in a different age. They hold the course sacred, and honestly, they are just as much the Gold.

Now the next guy after him:

Please, go enjoy the golf at Skylinks. This allows me to see that Ran does not have any idea of the quality of people we allow on the website these days! (you see, I know I'm sounding like a snob--and maybe I am--but I do have purpose and I do understand that this art, this architecture has meaning. You won't find it at Skylinks. I know this as fact. that's the reason why its empty now, and more or less the complaint of many of the residents who couldn't fathom making it an upper-tiered/priced course when the city didn't need that. Honestly, this is a minor mistake for the city, who deserves great praise for being the best owners of muni courses in Southern California. No other certainly comes close.

They just made a huge miscalculation regarding Skylinks.

Next time your in town, please do not hesitate to contact me so we can go play Skylinks and you can personally show me why you think its such a great design. (I didn't know beer played a huge part in the architecture--SCRATCH THAT--yes it does. LOTS OF IT! To kill the pain of having to follow closely Cal Olson's plans)  ;)

Meanwhile, I'll show you why I think its a complete waste of city money and where it could have put into so much better use.  Like dumping it all into Recreation Park for a COMPLETE RESTORATION, making it one of the premiere public courses to play in LA County if not Southern California. The poor problem is that it already is that.

Sam Maryland

Re: Your LA County top 5 public courses
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2008, 09:26:29 PM »
so the only good art is the art you like?

I never said it was an architectural masterpice...I just said it was an enjoyable place to play a round of golf.

is it ok to like a course for the view, but not ok to like one because it seems to be run well and is an enjoyable place to play golf and spend the day?

time for you to take another break?


Tom Naccarato

Re: Your LA County top 5 public courses
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2008, 09:51:09 PM »
Sam,
Honestly, if you don't develop a thicker skin, I suggest staying away from the Merion threads and any threads concerning golf in California.

As for me taking a break, well, I helped build this website and if you don't like that, well you better look at your own participation on this site. You must like it here, so obviously we were doing something right. So enjoy yourself! Consider me here for a long, long time. That is unless a plane lands on me the next time I'm playing Skylinks or if Ran or Ben decides I've over-stayed my welcome back. You could always complain to them. That would be your best bet.

Try to learn something, because golf course recommendations aren't your strong suit on this GOLF ARCHITECTURE-related website.

Just my opinion as if I could give a fuck what you think.

Adam_Messix

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Re: Your LA County top 5 public courses
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2008, 09:52:21 PM »
I will concur in regards to the Wood Ranch BBQ, it's excellent and would do well in the Southeast US, the Emperor and I had a fun evening there. 

Tom Naccarato

Re: Your LA County top 5 public courses
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2008, 09:54:32 PM »
Yes we did! And it was the beginning of a six month road to hell with the Ex! ;)

(She and Sam Maryland must have something in common)

Sam, just to let you know, I'm going to make a special trip out to Skylinks soon for a in-depth pictorial. Look for it soon.

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: Your LA County top 5 public courses
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2008, 10:02:27 PM »
Sam, Tommy has come back with honesty and directness.  So don't be so offended that he is demanding in his tastes.  Skylinks is an embarrassment.  I think it was even better before the redo, and it was pretty bad then.  I simply cannot think of one green that is different in character, shape or slope than another green.  The only thing there that grabs my attention are the helicopters taking off and landing nearby.  After the 18th I have always been glad to get into the car, onto to Lakewood Blvd. and headed toward the #405.  Why did I play there?  Long Beach Seniors tournament and the other seniors feel the same.

Now R. Paulis, any relation to Billy?
Moorpark has a number of ordinary restaurants, however it also has
Secret Garden, one of Ventura County's top 5 restaurants.  Expensive French cuisine.
Sunset Terrace, one of Ventura County's best kept secrets.  Superb pasta dishes with the Sunday prime rib equaling most good prime rib places.
Cafe Firenze, fine Italian dining and a more than decent wine list and great appetizers.
Two Guys from Italy.  Outstanding German dishes in an Italian setting.  The owner's brother is a chef in Mittenwald, Germany, near the Austrian border and has trained Jose and Pedro how to prepare good Bavarian food.
Wood Ranch, fun and good anytime.
In and Out.
The Grinder, probably one of the top 5 restaurants for breakfast in Ventura County.

Tommy, stand your ground and don't back down!!

It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Tom Naccarato

Re: Your LA County top 5 public courses
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2008, 10:20:33 PM »
Thanks Lynn, And thanks also for the great recommendations for some good puppychow after a round at the magnificent Rustic Canyon Golfing Club!

Seriously though Sam, my offer (and amends) is open to you if you want to accept it on your next trip to SoCal. Even I was a bit clueless when I started playing the Sport. Hell, it took me over 30 years to finally discover Santa Anita! (or at least take the time to go over there and play it!)

Lets let bygones be bygones and agree to disagree, until I really prove it in a pictorial essay. Then you'll be able to fully understand that the time at Skylinks would have been better spent at Legends or Panama Joe's, but only after a round at Big Rec. (or Little Rec for that matter)

In fact, Tim, put Little Rec on your list of courses. It a little gem too, as well as Roosevelt @ Griffith Park. Some fun and affordable golf at both of those places. Not to mention the fact that they are 9-hole courses. By the time your done, you'll want to turn around and play them again. That's called a passing grade for the Mucci-test!

Mike Golden

Re: Your LA County top 5 public courses
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2008, 10:51:04 PM »
I can only give an opinion on the front 9 at Skylinks because that is all I played-I guess that says it all ;D

From my vague memory it is repetitive, repetitive, repetitive...

Rec Park is so much the better course it isn't even worth mentioning in the same breath,  particularly when playing (and losing) a tough match to the Emperor while he is pointing out all the places where the golf course could be brought back to it's original greatness.

Tom Naccarato

Re: Your LA County top 5 public courses
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2008, 10:55:24 PM »
Mike, I think of you every time I pass Skylinks! (and Rec Park for that matter)

Sam Maryland

Re: Your LA County top 5 public courses
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2008, 10:58:21 PM »
Fair enough Tommy.

I look forward to the pictorial and commentary.  Not the least bit afraid to admit that I am a novice on architecture, but I am interested in learning. 

Do you think a reasonable degree of the dislike for Skylinks by locals can be chalked up to the "premium" price?  Is it really worse than before the work? 

I do understand the concept of "it was fine like it was"...and "these 'improvements' were achieved at what cost"? 

Tom Naccarato

Re: Your LA County top 5 public courses
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2008, 11:27:40 PM »
Sam,
I remember a thread from a while back concerning Sea island, and that you more or less said the same thing--it was fine like it was and these improvements were achieved at what cost?

I know you get that.

And for the most part you have hit the real nerve of this discussion--at least when it comes to local golfer's in Long Beach. When the cost to play Skylinks hit the open market, the golfer's (and locals) hit the roof for exactly, it was fine like it was and these improvements were achieved at what cost?

Is it a better maintained course? Oh yes, absolutely. Well sometimes. (there have been complaints about that too, but to be fair when the negativity starts, its hard to stop) Yes, the bunkers are more and plenty and now, have actual whiter sand in them. (instead of dirt) the tees are level and there is some actual resemblence of the place being a golf course, rather then a side lot just across the street from the airport. But I think of some of those holes previously--where you could see some really interesting features and even interesting holes, like the par 3 right there on Willow--what a tough son-of-a-bitch that thing could be. Lots of trees. Tons of them!

They didn't really cut all that many trees down, and if they did, they were the wrong ones. the bunker schemes on every hole are seemingly the same, as well as the shapes and sizes. The place could have been so much better. I'm told it cost over 8 Million for that job. $8 Million is two-Rustic Canyons at a price that could have attracted players, not drove them away, which happens to be the main complaint about the course--as well as the greens, which purportedly take a lot of abuse and don't heal fast. I've also heard the course--in typical Cal Olson fashion is a slog in the rough thanks to the use of wonderful Kentucky bluegrass in its rough areas, (which drinks water faster then W.C. Fields drank scotch) as well as the incessant need for green.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Your LA County top 5 public courses
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2008, 11:55:33 PM »
Tommy,

I have to say that it's nice to see you back in full force.   ;D