A silly question about Course conditioning?

[Lance]

I'm sitting here in my home, 2 miles from the Black Course as a second weather front with rain pelts down on this US Open venue on the eve of our American Championship,and this thought came to me>>>> If they can cover the infield at yankee Stadium to keep it playable when heavy rain appears, then why can't the USGA purchase 18 infield tarps to cover the US Open greens when thunderstorms roll in the night before a championship is about to begin? I understand that you may end up with fairways and greens of different firmness, but isn't that better than having a turkey shoot & having the players aim at every pin? For gosh sakes, why prepare a course to play a particular way for years to watch it get washed away in a few hours? Lance

[Oscar Brown]

The game is played outdoors. It is subject to weather.

[A_Clay_Man]

Well Lance I can only relate to you the story of my first open. It was Medinah in '90 and I was driving to the course thur. morn and it was still raining having not let let up all night long. I chuckled to myself "what was I doing". But I went thru the motions and sure enough the rain stopped and play was delayed a whole 18 mins.

I don't see tarps as being viable cause that water has to go somewhere and under ground is the best palce for it. Also, having been fortunate to see Bruceski's pictorial aren't most if not all those greens elevated? This will ensure decent drainage if who ever constructed them did so using sound drainage drainage drainage principles.

[Bruceski]

Lance,

Interesting thought. But should they install huge fans next to the 7th at Pebble in case the wind isn't blowing?

[PGertner]

The true beauty of golf is that golfers need to adjust their game according to the conditions present.  This holds true for players in the US Open, or golfers playing on the ANY golf course.  As we know, conditions can be wet, dry, windy, calm, and on and on.  

To me, (especially as a Superintendent) the best golf quote is "Play the golf course as you find it."  

I do not irrigate turf for my member's perception of how a ball should react when hitting a green or fairway.  I irrigate ONLY when the turfgrass needs water to survive.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lance,

You've got a good idea, don't let anyone tout you off it.

Golf courses already cover their greens with tarps over the winter.

If the intent is to keep the greens fast and firm for a MAJOR championship, why not.

A problem may be, how do you handle all the surface water coming off the greens, but I like you inventiveness.

[Steve Curry]

Lance,

As a superintendent, I've thought of that, years ago but couldn't afford it.  I think some events have done just that?  There is nothing worse than preping for an event and having the tides turn on your plans.  With the staff you have at an open you could buy covers big enough to cover the greens complex, to avoid runoff problems.  At Bethpage I would think the soils could take a lot of water and still stay firm.

Steve

[David Wigler]

Lance,

I like the idea as well.  I am going to ask my home courses Super about it the next time I see him.  Not for our course, but just to hear his take on the bene's and drawbacks.  Good thought.

[Russell Davis]

Lance,

I usually just read and laugh, but seriously.  Ideas like that are destroying the game.  Golf is played outside, on a plant. Covering a green to protect from a rain softend surface is just as bad as overwatering to produce a dark green mush.

Let them play the course as they find it, rub of the green.

Yours truly,

continually disheartened greenskeeper.

[TEPaul]

All you guys who believe they could or should cover any of the playing surfaces from the weather could definitely find a receptive ear and probably a job with the USGA.

As for me I like that golf is played outdoors, period!--although I'm sure no fan of playing in the rain but that's the way it's always been--and also dealing with the conditions rain brings to courses. Plus "casual water" is about the coolest term ever thought of and I couldn't stand to see that go the way of the "stymie"!

But heh, if you really want to cover things up from the weather on golf courses I would suggest the USGA make a deal with the Kuwaitis!! Those people owe us anyway for throwing that evil man out of their country and the fact is the Kuwaiti's have so much extra oil money that at one point they actually considered putting a roof over their entire country and air conditioning it!

So it would be a snap for them to figure out how to put a roof over a measly couple hundred acres of a US Open site! Hell, they could even install the irrigation system in the ceiling and irrigate the course from 2-3am every night!

And then if anyone has anything to complain about I would suggest the tour players just go to virtual reality golf like Dan King is recommending right now.

[David Wigler]

Tom and Russell,

I am not sure you get what we are trying to say.  On my regular Saturday round, rain soaked greens are fine.  In fact, on any round I play, rain soaked greens are fine.  

The US Open is the one event where hard and fast should be a requirement.  It is nice to see the best in the world have to struggle to make pars once a year.  Wet greens change the tournament into a fish in a barrell contest.  What is wrong with keeping them hard and fast?  They try to cover sand bunkers, don't they?

[Steve Curry]

Should I stop covering my greens in the winter, stop mowing, irrigating, manipulating the natural conditions to carve out a playing surface?  Golf courses are the most natural arena's of sports, but they require a level of alteration to exist (my job).  If we spend hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars(substitute thousands and millions in some cases) on preparation, why not prevent against a serious denigration of the playing surface for a special event ?  Where and why do you draw the line?

Steve

[TEPaul]

Steve:

Those are great points you make!! They really are! And your question, "Where do I draw the line?" is the fundamental one, it really is!

I would never say you should stop mowing, irrigating of covering the greens in the winter, obviously, but I might at covering things up for events--the line has to be drawn somewhere--but on the other hand I'm most open to any suggestions that 1/ help and assist maintenance do their job most effectively and 2/ keep golf courses in a state that golf can be played in the out of doors with many of the elements that occur in the out of doors!

But as to exactly where that line is drawn I would tend to defer to you--you know more about that area than I do!

[Steve Curry]

Tom et al,

Covering greens is on detrimental and extraordinary only in that it is expensive and time consuming.  If those aren't of issue then who cares?  I certainly am only thinking of the circumstance where the playability would significantly change for a major event.  Just as the infields are not covered for little league or in a drizzle at the World Series, but are for a downpour at the latter.  Many courses can handle significant rainfall and still play well.  Would you accept balls plugging in the greens or the Open, excuse me the U.S. Open, being cancelled?

In my opinion covering greens for a major event is not some blasphemous defacement of nature, but a dedicated effort to insure the "Show Going ON", as intended.

Regards,
Steve

[A_Clay_Man]

Ok so you have a 18 covered greens with tons of water on them. First, How do you lift them up to start paly? Second where does all that water go that you have just moved?

The result would appear to be it goes to the lowest point which is already soaked and now you have unnaturally altered another part of the course.

If I were the worst pro in the field I know I would throw the biggest hissie fit because my ball would find it. And puting my hands on the ball and going to high ground just isn't the same.

[Russell Davis]

David,

Maybe an asterick could be engraved next to the name of any U.S. Open winner if the greens are wet.

[DMoriarty]

I recently read somewhere (I can't remember where) about a company in Edmonton, Alberta that wants to build an enviromentally controlled golf course by building the course in three huge domes covered with some sort of high-tech greenhouse material. The course would have no wind, a constant temperature, and could be lit for 24 hour golf.  

As I read the article, I hoped it was a joke, but it did not seem to be.  

[Don_Mahaffey]

Sure, cover the greens assuring firm, dry greens played from wet sloppy fwys. No, to be fair, lets cover the fwys also, that way thay can be firm and fast too, so more balls can run into wet, knarly rough. But wait, you cover the greens during warm, humid summer conditions, instead of snow mold, do you get summer mold? And, I'm sure all those other clubs out there would never consider doing anything like that for their member guest, right? I mean, no one ever copies what happens at the big events, do they?

[A_Clay_Man]

Don-I think a selective marketing target for this idea should be Pebble Beach. I think it would be appropriate comeupance for a man who has done more to ruin, not only the game but the lives of some who ate off the perifrials. Mr. Harper. The newest member of the millionaire club.

They had a training session for the caddies at PB in anticipation of csi taking over the program and a few of the well established boys were summarily dismissed.

 

[William]

Not so silly of a question!

It won't be long till you see this happen!
The problem as I understand is air exchange in the soil! once this is figured out it'll happen!

[A_Clay_Man]

William- IMHO it is a ridiculous question.

 Don Mahaffey, a cutting edge super if ever there is one has summed it up eloquently.

[Patrick_Mucci]

To those scoffing at Lance's suggestion, could you remind me what the rule is when visible water on the green lies between your ball and the hole.

Do you get to move your ball ?

Wet greens are like dart boards for the pros.

Keep them fast and firm.

Conversely, greens are syringed during the day to prevent an adverse condition, why not cover them when it's pouring at night ?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Patrick, I don't like the idea because I believe the course would end up out of whack with soggy conditions through the green and very firm, fast greens. The modern putting green can move an amazing amount of water through and they do firm up fairly quickly. The course looked to me to be playing plenty difficult with out doing something severe like covering the greens and upsetting the balance of the course.
As far as syringing, that is done for agronomic reasons, and I don't think covers would be a positive for the turf.