[Anthony Gray]

Guys,

All this talk about yardages.

Makes me wonder, and answer honestly, what player can post a score without knowing yardages? 

I "get" the notion of not having any, a la Friar's Head.  But even then, those who play the course over and over again are eventually going to map out a yardage guide in their head.  They'll think, "I know it's 140 to the front of the green from this little shrub" and things like that.

But this knowledge only comes from playing a course again and again. 

I'm not a big fan of crazy complex yardage books and laser rangefinders and what not, but what's wrong with something as simple as yardages on a sprinkler head measured to the front of the green? 

That and flagsticks which are changed based on front, middle and back pin locations seems all any course ever needs.

  Michael,

  The point is it is not about posting a score. It is about a unique experience.

  Others,

  And another thing let me be very clear. When I play OM I am not looking for a top 10 course or a 10 on the Doak Scale. I desire a 10 experience.
 So the heck with the yardages and my score I'm swinging away and checking out the views.
That's my story and I am sticking to it.

    Anthony

[Dean Stokes]

Anthony, that may work well for you - enjoy it.

If I wanted to 'swing away and enjoy the views' I would go for a walk on the beach or in the forest with my dog and my 8 iron.

As for flying to a golf destination and spending hundreds of $$$ to play a golf course it is certainly not about the same thing for you and I.

I am most probably playing in a competitive group and I am there to test my ability against the elements and the challenge the architect has put before me. The score I shoot is fairly important to me as a 'competitor'.

I do not want to take a caddie and add further expense to my round but I DO want to know the yardages without having to carry a laser finder or a yardage book.

Perhaps our group should stay away from OM and take our 20 player golf outing to a resort that understands what 95% of the golfing public desire

[Matt OBrien]

The Codes on the sprinkler heads give the consumer the oppertunity to to know the yardage if they want to know it. They will have to buy the book or take a caddy but it does give them the oppertunity to find it out. Another positive that will come from this will be the demand for caddies. I know people dont want to pay for a caddy but if they cant navigate the course without yardage then they may think twice about taking one. I enjoy playing PV or Merion where you dont know the yardage and you have to use feel, instinct and the knowledge of your caddy to decide on your shot.

[Rob Rigg]

Dean,

What if you were given a yardage book as part of the fee to play the course?

It probably takes the same amount of time to figure out how far you are to the green as wandering around looking for a sprinkler head (which could be coded so you would still have to find it)?

There is no doubt that when you are used to having yardage all the time it is difficult to play without it. For a lot of people, when you are playing for money or to shoot your best score you want as much info as possible.

I grew up playing a county course in Ireland that had no yardage, it is amazing how quickly you develop a feel for shots - but yes - in your head you are essentially calculating yardage or at least the appropriate club depending on the conditions. I still find it more satisfying sticking something close to the pin based on feel, but I digress.

I am with Matt, Tom, and Andy on the coded sprinkler heads or yardage books. Bandon is still going to get 40k plus rounds a year.

[Joe Bentham]

Gentlemen--
There WILL be yardages at Old Mac.  May I suggest a new thread if this discussion is to continue?  If not back to Old Macdonald...

5 green from the tee



 

[Rob Rigg]

REOW!!!! 

Apologies for being involved in the yardage marker tangent - sort of - I think a few of us were hoping that George could gather some thoughts, bring it to the powers that be and put the kybosh on it. 

Thanks for the pics Joe - the undulations on the greens are amazing - is that the Hell bunker in the bottom pic? If not, uh oh, that thing looks badass (and probably has cousins).

[Joe Bentham]

Rob
I think its an interesting discussion.  I'm for it.  But I also am 100% sure it has no chance of happening at Old Mac.  So I don't see any reason for the discussion to continue here.
And no hell bunker is on 6, but I'm sure we'll have a name for the bunkering on 5 soon enough.

[Tom Huckaby]

Well then there we have it... I guess.

BUT... I mean this as no offense to you, Joe.  You are a caddie at Bandon, correct?  So please don't take this wrong - I have no reason not to trust you - but when one of the consultants to the design of the course (George Bahto) asks if there should be yardage markers on the course, well... that to me connotes an open question. 

I also don't see that this is tangential to the discussion here given George asked the question.

So with all due respect, I don't feel like giving it up yet.  It's an interesting hypothetical even if it won't happen at this course.  I also don't see how it detracts from discussion of the course itself and comments on the wonderful pictures provided (and many thanks for those!).

Thus to Dean Stokes, a question:  if and when I play the course, I too will likely play competitively in some way shape or form.  I too will want to do my best.  Thus I too would most likely use the yardage information that's available, at least for these rounds... I'd likely also do at least one without any info just for fun.  So the question:  what is so difficult about consulting a yardage book or using a Bushnell to get your yardage information?  Why must you necessarily have it in the form of in-ground markers?  The book need not be complex; the one they use at Ballyneal is pretty user-friendly.  I don't get why yardage markings are necessary for this reason... remember we are not prohibiting distance information, we're just leaving it off the ground so that those who want to play without it can readily do so.   Again, to be absolutely clear - we are not saying you can't have distance information or need to play that way... we just want you to use a yardage guide, Bushnell or caddie.

TH

[Anthony Gray]

  Looks very natural.

 Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

  So Joe ....What do you think about the election?

   Anthony

 

[Scott Szabo]

So the question:  what is so difficult about consulting a yardage book or using a Bushnell to get your yardage information?  Why must you necessarily have it in the form of in-ground markers?  The book need not be complex; the one they use at Ballyneal is pretty user-friendly.  I don't get why yardage markings are necessary for this reason... remember we are not prohibiting distance information, we're just leaving it off the ground so that those who want to play without it can readily do so.   Again, to be absolutely clear - we are not saying you can't have distance information or need to play that way... we just want you to use a yardage guide, Bushnell or caddie.

TH

Tom,

First of all, let me preface this by saying I haven't read this entire thread as it relates to yardage markers, so if I've missed a point, please let me apologize in advance.

I agree with most of your post, except for the comment about about leaving it off the ground so that those who want to play without it can readily do so.  Wouldn't it make more sense to have it on there so those that want to use it can readily do so?  I would think it would be easier for those who DON'T want to use it to simply not LOOK at it if they don't want to.  I think this would provide more appeal to a greater population.

Just my two cents.....

Scott

[Tom Huckaby]

Scott:

I sincerely believe it's quite difficult to fully ignore distance information if a course is marked as most are today.  I also don't see that it would be all that difficult to just use a yardage guide.  Remember also I am not advocating this for all courses - far from it - but for this one, given what it is, what it is supposed to be? 

My vote stays as it is.

TH

[Scott Szabo]

I agree with the yardage guide, given it's not too difficult to use.  If it is, you're asking for 6-plus hour rounds of golf.  To me, as long as the information is available, it wouldn't matter in what form it comes.

Ballyneal's original yardage guides were far from user friendly, so they must have come a long way since the beginning.  Now, the caddies have GPS systems in hand to provide the information.  In times when caddies are not available, I believe the club will provide these for their members and guests.

[Dean Stokes]

So the question:  what is so difficult about consulting a yardage book or using a Bushnell to get your yardage information?  Why must you necessarily have it in the form of in-ground markers?  The book need not be complex; the one they use at Ballyneal is pretty user-friendly.  I don't get why yardage markings are necessary for this reason... remember we are not prohibiting distance information, we're just leaving it off the ground so that those who want to play without it can readily do so.   Again, to be absolutely clear - we are not saying you can't have distance information or need to play that way... we just want you to use a yardage guide, Bushnell or caddie.

TH

Tom,

First of all, let me preface this by saying I haven't read this entire thread as it relates to yardage markers, so if I've missed a point, please let me apologize in advance.

I agree with most of your post, except for the comment about about leaving it off the ground so that those who want to play without it can readily do so.  Wouldn't it make more sense to have it on there so those that want to use it can readily do so?  I would think it would be easier for those who DON'T want to use it to simply not LOOK at it if they don't want to.  I think this would provide more appeal to a greater population.

Just my two cents.....

Scott

Scott (TH - reply) Thank you for saving me typing exactly what you did. TH, this is a RESORT facility. If you wish to play without yardages etc. etc. find a private facility that accomodates your purist desires.

I also very much enjoy the occasional round without any yardage information especially when my bushnell batteries run out) - I grew up playing that way - but if I'm at a course I am visiting, especially a publicly used facility I can handle looking at sprinkler heads for the day.

[Michael Dugger]

Pictures look great, Joe, nice work.

Back to the yardage thing.  I'm chuckling at any notion of playing without yardages being "for the experience."

I think you can have both.  How does one even get their head around playing without yardages?  I guess I just fail to see the "positive" of thinking you got about 130 yards in only to find it was actually 170 and you came up 40 yards short.   Optical illusion?  Check.  Now what?

Like I said in my first post, next time I come through that golf hole I'll know it is 170 from that location and not 130.  But not everyone playing a golf course is going to play it enough time to know such a thing.

Furthermore, I propose that once you play a course enough times you don't even need a yardage, because you already know in your mind.

So really this question of "to notate yardages or to not" is basically only relevant to first time players.  I think playing a golf course for the first time is going to offer up plenty of "unknowns" without yardage being another one of them.....so I say give us the distances....  

[Dean Stokes]

Pictures look great, Joe, nice work.

Back to the yardage thing.  I'm chuckling at any notion of playing without yardages being "for the experience."

I think you can have both.  How does one even get their head around playing without yardages?  I guess I just fail to see the "positive" of thinking you got about 130 yards in only to find it was actually 170 and you came up 40 yards short.   Optical illusion?  Check.  Now what?

Like I said in my first post, next time I come through that golf hole I'll know it is 170 from that location and not 130.  But not everyone playing a golf course is going to play it enough time to know such a thing.

Furthermore, I propose that once you play a course enough times you don't even need a yardage, because you already know in your mind.

So really this question of "to notate yardages or to not" is basically only relevant to first time players.  I think playing a golf course for the first time is going to offer up plenty of "unknowns" without yardage being another one of them.....so I say give us the distances....  

DITTO

[Tom Huckaby]

Some here must be cracking up at me being called the "purist" given I have VEHEMENTLY defended the use of electronic yardage devices against the real purists in here.  

So look guys, no one is telling you how to play.  I just continue to fail to see why it's so difficult to use a yardage guide - so to me it has zero relevance what type of course this is (resort, private, etc.).  It just does remain clear to me that if you put down yardage info, you do ruin the "purist" experience for those who want to have it.  These purists in the meantime are not taking anything away from you.  Plain and simple, a yardage guide just really need not be all that tough.  Use bushes, mounds, bunkers, whatever... the info will be easily presentable.

So Michael, again, no is is against giving you the distances.  You'll just get them out of a book.

Dean - no one is telling you how to play.  Use the book.  Use a caddie.  Use a Bushnell.  If this is too difficult for you, well I guess I have no answer.  I just wonder how you manage to play the game at all if this is hard.  

Scott:  I fail to see why it would take any longer to play getting yardages out of a book.  Again, assume the book is user-friendly, more so than the initial one at Ballyneal (the one I used earlier this year was pretty simple once you got used to it - but then again I am no slave to knowing distance to the exact yard).  

Those who want exact yardages will take far longer than those who don't anyway... if fast play really is your concern, then don't start down the yardage info trail.... the "purists" just grabbing a club and hitting the ball are gonna blow you away.

TH

[Joe Hancock]

Devil's Advocate says-

If this is a resort and yardages are wanted by the vast majority of golfers, why are there no carts? Isn't the logic similar? Only because management made the decision to cultivate a certain culture at the facility by eliminating carts made it so, not because the vast majority of golfers want, or don't want carts.

TY

DA

Further, if management at Bandon said Old Mac would only be played with hickories (available to rent, of course) how well would that be received by this crowd? Very wel I would imagine....

[Anthony Gray]

  It is impossible not to notice markers when playing period.

  Anthony

[Scott Szabo]

  It is impossible not to notice markers when playing period.

  Anthony

Anthony,

I would think just about the opposite.  I have more trouble finding them than missing them....

[Anthony Gray]

   No carts. No yardages. This is not a resort. This is DREAM GOLF!

  Anthony

[PThomas]

Joes pic of 5 green in post 150 reminds me of the infamous Sitwell Park gren

[Anthony Gray]

  It is impossible not to notice markers when playing period.

  Anthony

Anthony,

I would think just about the opposite.  I have more trouble finding them than missing them....

  It is just to tempting knowing they are there.

  Anthony

[Michael Dugger]

Huck,

I'm with ya, bro, I didn't know we were discriminating between the "medium" via which the yardages will be made available.

I'm down with whatever, though I kinda prefer NOT using the big candycane stakes at 200, 150 and 100.  

But whether yardage is outlined within an insanely detailed book, a poorly detailed book, or sprinkler heads, I don't really care, just give me sumthin' please.....

[John Kavanaugh]

Funny thing about this kind of golf is that after six three putts and a four putt or two yardage to the green becomes secondary.  

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