Darwin 1910 - Golf Courses of the British Isles

[Ally Mcintosh]

There are a hundred little subtle references in this book that give ideas of what golf used to be like... I have plenty of questions (many of which I am sure must have been discussed on here before)

However, for now, can anyone show me any pictures or diagrams of a golf hole where you have to hit your drive or approach OVER a wood of trees...

There are at least three occasions in this book where Drawin refers to shots of this nature and it is obvious that he is quite fond of them.

This book was obviously written at a turning point (1910) when many of the old style features were being designed out... There must be many strange holes that have been confined to the dustbins of history (until one of you gentlemen finally retrieves it)

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I can think of two quite prominent ones, one at Noordwijk, the other at Slaley Hall. You can also take on the trees on the 18th at Delamere Forest.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I can think of two quite prominent ones, one at Noordwijk, the other at Slaley Hall. You can also take on the trees on the 18th at Delamere Forest.

Mark, I hope to play Noordwijk in April... I have played Slaley Hall however... Are you referring to the 2nd hole which is effectively a 90 degree dogleg where you can cut the corner over the trees?

I guess that there are a few holes of this type. They are not the type of hole I imagined from Darwin's writing though. To me, it sounded like the trees were a deliberate cross-hazard that HAD to be crossed and effectively made the hole a good one... I may be reading it wrong...

[Tom_Doak]

Ally:

Remind me again what were the three examples you cite from Darwin.  It's been too long since I read the book.

The one I remember was the "Paradise" hole at Royal Eastbourne.  I went to look at that course specifically because of that reference, and a photo of the hole I saw somewhere.  Today's hole is longer, and 99% play AROUND the woods in a dogleg, instead of trying to go over the top as Darwin did.

Standardization killed holes like that.  Probably stroke play killed them, too ... if you are trying to play over a wood in match play, and one guy doesn't make it, it only costs a hole, and if neither guy makes it you could halve the hole in ten ... but in medal play that's a big blot on the card.

[Andy Hughes]

The one I remember was the "Paradise" hole at Royal Eastbourne.  I went to look at that course specifically because of that reference, and a photo of the hole I saw somewhere.  Today's hole is longer, and 99% play AROUND the woods in a dogleg, instead of trying to go over the top as Darwin did.

Reminds me of the Sam Snead tale on the 13th tee at ANGC. Maybe the trees Darwin would have hit over were much shorter than they became many years later at the courses Ally is referring to.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Tom,

I'll note them down tonight and post tomorrow... One reference was very definitely a cross-hazard immediately in front of the tee.

Another he mentioned had just recently been redesigned out of a course and he was sorry to see it go.

Yet another talked about actually playing a shot to land within a copse of trees - I am not sure quite how literally to take the word "within" here but seeing as he said that the hole was not to his liking for this reason, I imagine it wasn't just a clearing with open access...

[Tom Naccarato]

Ally,
Not nearly enough is said about this great book. My favorite is his description of his beloved Aberdovey. I don't think Darwin enjoyed a place more then that, other then maybe the Old Course. His accounting of the excitement of approaching the course while on the train ride there is proof of that love.

Tom Doak,
For the longest time I searched and scoured the internet to see if Royal Eastbourne's "Paradise" still existed after reading Darwin's account of the hole and then seeing the famed "Chalk Pit" bunker in Horace Hutchinson's British Golf Links (another personal favorite for a great many years)

Using Windows Live's, Birdseye oblique photos, I found the area where "Chalkpit" once existed but the Paradise green--a somewhat punchbowl-looking thing; as well as the temple-like structure behind the green, was not to be found--or seen in the photos. Did that still exist when you were there?

[Mark Pearce]

I can think of two quite prominent ones, one at Noordwijk, the other at Slaley Hall. You can also take on the trees on the 18th at Delamere Forest.

Mark,

I'm struggling with which hole you're referring to at Slaley Hall.  There is, I suppose,an option for the short or mishit tee shot to leave an approach over trees on the second but it's only a decent long iron off the tee for most to get a clear sight of the green.  I have wondered whether a really long driver might try to drive this green but have never seen it tried and the green is sufficiently well protected that I can't imagine the reward justifying the risk.

A brave player might well drive over the trees on the inside of the dogleg on 8, but it's a brave shot because it brings the stream into play.  Because I'm always fed up with the round by then, I always drive over the trees on the inside of the dogleg on 16.

On all of these holes, however, there is an option (probably the best option), which does not involve taking on a shot over the trees.  Which one of these did you have in mind?

[Mark Pearce]

Chorleywood Golf Club, a 9 holer in Hertfordshire which used to be popular with members of the House of Lords (legend has it that Chorleywood station on the Metropolitan line was built to enable their Lordships to get to the club, the station is a stone's throw from the first tee) has a hole (I can't remember clearly but I think the fourth) where two trees stand in the middle of the fairway, side by side and at about driving range.  Off the tee the choice is a)  hit driver and hope to get a break and pass the trees or end up between them or to one side, so as to be able to hit a short approach (they are no more than 10 yards apart and the fairway is narrow, I honestly don't think anybody but a supersta could really aim for one of the gaps) or hit a mid iron off the tee and another for the second shot.  Definitely quirky, but fun.

The 9th also hasa tree in the middle of the fairway, but the options are somewhat different.

[Rich Goodale]

Ally

The words "have to" limit the possibilities.  As others have said or implied above, there are numerous examples of holes where hitting over trees is a strategic option.  The 13th at Augusta is a famous one, and there are 5 at my infamous home course Aberdour.

The only "have to" I can think of is the 1st at Cypress Point, and in that case, the trees are really just an overgrown hedge.....

As for playing into a copse of trees, the 12th at Stanford comes close.

 But these, of course are places Darwin may never have been.

Rich

[Tom Naccarato]

J-PP,
A Copse of Trees or A Corpse of A Once Great Golf Course? (Opps, I'm being a word-Nazi! Actually its O.K. though, because I'm looking for direction; substance.)

[Andy Hughes]

Mike Cirba, if you happen to stumble into this thread--didn't Mountain Manor have a hole with trees all the way across the fairway?

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy N:  The little temple was still there when I visited in 1982 ... I went back and looked at my slides to make sure I didn't just imagine it.  It was behind what is now the ninth green, and it was almost overgrown by trees, so it might just be hard to spot on the topo.  I'll look on Google Earth right now.

The Chalk Pit is still there, too.  You have to clear it on the tee shot to the third.  But, it's largely overgrown with grass now.

Ally:

Now that I think about it, I remember there was a tee shot on the back nine at Wentworth where you pretty much had to hit up and over a diagonal picket line of large trees about 200 yards off the tee ... the first I saw it was at the World Matchplay in 1982, and it struck me as a VERY unusual feature that was pretty cool.

[Tom_Doak]

Aha ... I just had a look at Google Earth.

Tommy, the hole in question is the dogleg-right par-4 just to the east of a public road.  The temple would be in the trees just behind the green, so you can't tell if it's still there or not.

Turns out what killed this hole is the public road.  There's a big break between the 8th green and 9th tee now, but the old hole started across that road and went up and over the trees in the corner of the dogleg to the same green.

[Tom Naccarato]

Tom, I bow to your infinite wisdom, and experience!

The Chalk Pit


Paradise

[Brian_Ewen]

Ally .....are you telling me you have never played Brechin ?

[Jon Wiggett]

A course I played many years ago was Richmond Golf club in North Yorkshire. The following description of their 18th is posted below. When I played the course you didn't see the green at all and there was a car tyre painted red nailed to one of the trees to give you an idea of the direction. The clubhouse was just a few yards behind the green.


http://www.richmondyorksgolfclub.co.uk/info2.cfm?info_id=34655

'a 153-yard par 3. A thick, tall wood seperates the tee-box from the green, with just a narrow path cut through the middle that gives no more than a glimpse of the green and flag - and clubhouse beyond. A high, straight clip is what's required though you will need to hold your nerve, its a great way to finish.'

[Gary Slatter]

There are a hundred little subtle references in this book that give ideas of what golf used to be like... I have plenty of questions (many of which I am sure must have been discussed on here before)

However, for now, can anyone show me any pictures or diagrams of a golf hole where you have to hit your drive or approach OVER a wood of trees...

There are at least three occasions in this book where Drawin refers to shots of this nature and it is obvious that he is quite fond of them.

This book was obviously written at a turning point (1910) when many of the old style features were being designed out... There must be many strange holes that have been confined to the dustbins of history (until one of you gentlemen finally retrieves it)

I think it was Sam Snead who said "The trees weren't as tall when I was a kid".   At my fav Manchester GC in Jamaica there is a hole where you have to hit it over trees, but I doubt they were there in 1867.

[Tony_Muldoon]

The Wentworth hole is now down to two tall pines, it's quite a carry for the amatuer.

The Old Course at Villamoura has a signature Par 3 with an umbrella pine in front of it.

A Neil Coles course now called Wolston Manor has two holes using large Oaks.  The 15th an uphill par 4 where if the ball hits the tree it falls into a bunker. The 16th is a downhill par 5 and the tree is just short of the green, presumably to make it harder to attack in two.

I love blindess and quirk, normally, but these holes do little for me.  I'm not against the concept per se, but I've yet to see an example that appeals.

Hitting from the top of a hill across the tree tops into a harely defined clearing...now that would appeal.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Gary,

I was in Jamaica a few years ago and was going to head over to see Manchester (and Constant Spring, in Kingston) until some locals at our hotel, near Negril, advised against this trip - due to potential danger -- in front of my wife!

I had to back off the idea, for obvious reasons... 

[Bob_Huntley]

Royal Salisbury G.C. (oops, Harare), had a par three with a tree slap in front of the tee and I always thought it weird. The Richmond, Yorkshire one sounds even weirder.

As for Darwin finding such a hole amusing, just goes to show how wrong we can be presuming to know something about anyone from their writings.
He could be the most ascerbic cuss around, I would have thought he would have crucified the tree polluted holes.

Bob

[JohnV]

However, for now, can anyone show me any pictures or diagrams of a golf hole where you have to hit your drive or approach OVER a wood of trees...

Schenley Park in Pittsburgh has a few holes where you hit over trees and roads.

See:
Schenley Google Image

Notice there are three holes that go back and forth over the road and the 40 foot high trees that are next to it.

[Ally Mcintosh]

There are some good examples above but generally they are down to one or two trees as opposed to a whole wood...

I found the Darwin references (posted below)... The best one still existing seems to be Eastbourne mentioned by Tom and Tommy above... But can someone check out the example from Frilford Heath which is a course Darwin has the utmost respect for... Also note Ganton...


FRILFORD HEATH (p.149): "Then comes the third, before mentioned, which is a one-shot hole. The wood rises pretty steeply in front of the tee, and the shot is made the more difficult because a cleek is hardly long enough, and so we have to take a wooden club. Many a shot that would under ordinary circumstances fill us with a mild degree of conceit will only send the ball crashing in to the forest. It is no hole for the 'low-raker' which we regard with complacency at Hoylake and St Andrews. We must hit a fine towering shot, and then we hope to find our ball on the green - a pretty little green which nestles close under the lee of the wood on the far side"

EASTBOURNE (p.63-64): "Paradise is a pretty wood, traversed by public road and adorned by one of those sham Greek temples which were beloved of our ancestors. The Chalk Pit explains itself, and it is only necessary to add that it is an extremely deep one. We drive over the pit, and a good drive will go bounding down a hill a prodigious distance, leaving us with an iron shot to play over Paradise Wood on to a horse-shoe shaped green in the neighbourhood of the temple. How it may be with rubber-cored balls I do not know; probably everyone pitches jauntily and easily enough over Paradise, but it was something of a feat to carry the wood in the consulship of Plancus, and many a reasonably stout-hearted golfer would sneak round the corner and, giving the timber a wide berth, make reasonably sure of his five"

GANTON (p.131): "Most noteworthy of all, the hole of which the visitor to Ganton formerly carried away the most vivid impression, has been altered out of all recognition. This is the present twelfth hole, where in the old days the tee-shot consisted of a mashie pitch, played mountains high into the air in order to clear the tops of a row of tall trees. Now the trees have been ruthlessly cut down, and we have a one-shot hole, demanding not a mashie but a brassey shot, very good and very orthodox. No doubt the old hole was a bad one, and the new one is good; nevertheless there must have been some bitter regrets over the felling of the trees"

HINKSEY (p.148): "There was a short hole - the fourth, I think - where one played a pitching shot into the heart of a wood which was distinctly entertaining, but on the whole it (the course, not the hole) was not a good test of golf, or if it was, then I would rather have my golf tested in some other way"


These are the examples I immediately found... Darwin definitely was sad to see some of the very individual holes be designed out of our courses... He talks about this after the Ganton description...

This book has so many insights in to the day and the man... One of the most enjoyable is his take on what is now "Safety, Safety, Safety"... There are a few riotous descriptions where he seems to take a sort of devilish pleasure in the possibility that he might hit some one and cause murder on the golf course... this in the days when many more holes crossed and you took your life in your own hands...

[Mark Pearce]

The Northumberland G.C. has 22 holes, four of which are known as the Winter Holes and only come into play outside of BST, replacing the usual 12-15 holes, furthest from the clubhouse.  The third of the Winter Holes (the 6th on the Winter Course) is a 220+ yard par 3 with a copse of trees between the tee and the green, but only 30-40 yards short of the green.  It's possible to carry the trees with a utility club, but it needs to be hit clean.  The alternative is to try to draw a ball round the trees, but it requires a good 30 yards of draw.  Most play out to the right and hope to chip and putt.

[Bill_McBride]

GANTON (p.131): "Most noteworthy of all, the hole of which the visitor to Ganton formerly carried away the most vivid impression, has been altered out of all recognition. This is the present twelfth hole, where in the old days the tee-shot consisted of a mashie pitch, played mountains high into the air in order to clear the tops of a row of tall trees. Now the trees have been ruthlessly cut down, and we have a one-shot hole, demanding not a mashie but a brassey shot, very good and very orthodox. No doubt the old hole was a bad one, and the new one is good; nevertheless there must have been some bitter regrets over the felling of the trees"


This book has so many insights in to the day and the man... One of the most enjoyable is his take on what is now "Safety, Safety, Safety"... There are a few riotous descriptions where he seems to take a sort of devilish pleasure in the possibility that he might hit some one and cause murder on the golf course... this in the days when many more holes crossed and you took your life in your own hands...

Isn't there still a hole at Ganton where the proper tee shot is over a row of trees?  I haven't been there but seem to recall that from stories of the Walker Cup brought back from a couple of our members....

"Golf Courses of the British Isles" was my first or second golf architecture book, purchased at Golf House years ago.  I still like to get it out every now and then just to read Darwin's great reviews and relish his descriptions of what happens to the "foozler."