News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« on: November 30, 2008, 08:12:56 PM »
I played golf with Mike DeVries this summer, and I shared some opinions about golf course aesthetics.  Essentially, I said if it looks like good golf can be played on it, then it is beautiful.  After years of golfing experiences, I have a reasonably keen eye for golf terrain, and can see what yields golf shots of great interest.  One of the great joys of playing an excellent course the first time is the chance to visually interpret each new challenge.

Mike sent me an article relevant to my thoughts.  I'm not much for reading golf literature, let alone quoting it.  The article is "Art in Golf Architecture" by Max Behr, from the Bulletin of Green Section of the USGA, dated May 16, 1925.

Max Behr writes:

Repton, the great landscape gardener of the 18th century, has perhaps most concisely and perfectly stated them:

"First it must display the natural beauties and the hide the natural defects of every situation.  Secondly, it should give the appearance of extent and freedom by carefully disguising or hiding the boundary.  Thirdly, it must studiously conceal every interference of art, however extensive, by which the scenery is improved, making the whole appear the production of nature only.  And fourthly, all objects of mere convenience or comfort, if incapable of being made ornamental, or of becoming proper parts of the general scenery, must be removed or concealed."


Max Behr writes:

"It must be evident that there are two methods in which golf architecture is pursued.  In the one we see the architect, with plasticine or contour lines, inventing regardless of the nonconformity of situations to his ideas; and, thus, feeling himself free to modify the ground to his will, it is 'his destiny' to be in bondage to the winds of fashion and reflect in his work the psychology of his time.  Driven by a self-complacency in his omnipotence, the bark of his architecture, without the rudder of geological law, must drift from one fallacy of design to another.  Only thus it would seem that 'freak' architecture can be explained."

As an aside, Max Behr is challenging to read.  Long meandering thoughts with a considerable vocabulary in his arsenal.  I had to look up "lineaments" and peripatetic", and found his use of the words was profoundly accurate.

OK, my turn:

Nature is not random.  Plate tectonic movement, heat and gravity, the erosive action of water ⎯ these occur where they must.  Volcanoes explode, water falls, trees root, and minerals crystallize, all on a path of least resistance.  It takes time, but physics and evolution conspire to create a perfect landscape.  Perfect and infinitely different.  Some are well suited for golf.


Max Behr writes:

"And greens are now being purposely tilted toward play, and enfeebled skill rejoices.  The upshot of such an unsubstantial philosophy of golf must be to reveal every feature of nature, with nature robbed of its mystery...Is golf to be robbed of all illusion?  Is the walk between shots to be, only, a tragic and dull affair?  Does not the very essence of a sport lie in that suspense between the commencement of an action and the knowledge of the result?"


Recently I discussed the aesthetics at Stone Eagle Golf Club.  Stone Eagle is an interesting study in aesthetics, a course that dramatically clashes with its rocky, arid environment.  Dark green grass would not grow without unnatural assistance.  On the other hand, the course contours match the land, sand bunkers fade effortlessly into the similarly colored terrain, and native plants adorn the landscape.  Course aesthetics are as good as they can be.

The aesthetic beauty of a golf course is measured by how natural it looks and the quality of the golf shots it yields.  In my experience, artificial ponds, and unnatural looking landforms such as containment mounds, do not yield exciting golf shots.  An exception could be made for a peaceful greenside pond in a parkland setting.  Flower beds and broad shallow ponds generally don't look natural and are therefore poor aesthetically.

Aesthetically my favorite courses are on sandy dunes.  I see the light green turf and the undulating ground and it looks appropriate.  I feel the wind and see the ball will roll and know that the golf will be fun.  It's beautiful.  Others see a parkland course as the pinnacle of aesthetics.

A final example:

I played Riviera this fall and my host pushed his drive on the 5th hole, leaving himself a shot over that big knob short of the green.  I don't think that knob is a natural feature, but it is so strange and out of place that one feels it must be natural, because there's nothing remotely similar on the course.  He hit his second weakly; we thought there was a chance it carried the crest.  Unfortunately, the club keeps the grass a foot long on the knob, and we never found it.  Why would they do such a thing?


Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2008, 09:33:09 PM »
Excellent! I look forward to the discussion. Just loved this
Quote
the bark of his architecture, without the rudder of geological law, must drift from one fallacy of design to another.

John, Behr's writings are complicated for a reason.  They are for a more sophisticated golfing soul.

The designers of today, who intentionally leave their hand out of the final product, would be FOM.

Friends of Max

P.s. For more bounce, Only play the Riv in the winter after the K squared goes dormant, and preferably, after a nice haircut.

   
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2008, 10:06:11 PM »
...
Nature is not random.  Plate tectonic movement, heat and gravity, the erosive action of water ⎯ these occur where they must.  Volcanoes explode, water falls, trees root, and minerals crystallize, all on a path of least resistance.  It takes time, but physics and evolution conspire to create a perfect landscape.  Perfect and infinitely different.  Some are well suited for golf.
...

You are right. It is not random. There are repeated fractal patterns. JVB and I once discussed on this site that one appoach to creating a course on featureless land would be generate a factal landscape, rearrange the land to it, and build a course upon it.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

TEPaul

Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2008, 10:20:16 PM »
John:

You should probably try to make some semi-defining point and call for discussion on it or just ask a question about some of the general drift of the remarks quoted above by a Repton or Behr.

In my opinion, the remarks of Repton in the context of golf architecture (of a particular type) probably has at least three major league holes in it, but then I'm reminded that Repton himself and his career probably preceded man-made golf archtitecture altogether and consequently what the man was talking about wasn't really about golf course architecture; it was about landscape architecture. ;)

Some, perhaps many, think they are very closely connected or are perhaps even one and the same somehow. I certainly don't consider myself one of them who thinks that way.

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2008, 10:36:20 PM »
John - a very fine post there.

Just picking up on one idea, I thought Behr's question -- i.e. "Is golf to be robbed of all illusion?" -- is telling and significant.

I don't know what to make of it, but it popped out at me as saying a lot.

I'll mull it over, but am hoping others can zero in on it

Peter

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2008, 10:53:29 PM »
"It must be evident that there are two methods in which golf architecture is pursued."

This sort of Manichean analysis has been detrimental to the discourse on this site over the years.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2008, 10:58:52 PM »
"It must be evident that there are two methods in which golf architecture is pursued."

This sort of Manichean analysis has been detrimental to the discourse on this site over the years.


For those of us that don't have the benefit of an MIT education, would you please tell us what Manichean analysis is?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2008, 11:06:21 PM »
Michael Moore,

Is there not a simple dichotomy in architectural philosophy self-evident between an approach that sees the pre-existing land and its forms as something almost reverential and by definition unique, which is to be tampered with as little as possible to prepare it for golf, and one which sees the existing land as strictly raw materials as in a sandbox, or carton of playdoh, which is only there to be shaped to the designer's will?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2008, 11:09:26 PM by MikeCirba »

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2008, 12:03:41 AM »
Are Max Behr and Melvyn related? They would appear to be very much on the same page.

John - Thanks for the thought provoking post.

It is interesting to compare Behr's comments, and yours, in the context of what has happened to GCA over time.

For golf courses to be built at places such as Stone Eagle or around Vegas it is necessary for man to manipulate the environment (and build cart paths).

Would Behr accept the altering of the landscape at Stone Eagle because it works well with the natural canvas of the land?

Would he be appalled at what transpired at Shadow Creek?

Or would he detest both?

If so, would Max only approve of golf courses where the land is only touched for the creation of tees and greens? Or is his philosophy more inline with what Mike summarized in his post?

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2008, 12:28:21 AM »
What Max might think is irrelevant. I suspect those who decry these fundamentals have never been jarred by the visual evidence of a designers ego. They salute it as unique and/or refreshing.

Peter, The sentence you highlight jumped off the page at me too. Although I felt as though I understood exactly that of which he wrote. Especially with the reference to the enfeebling of skills. Awareness being the foundation of skill.

Garland,
Isn't it something like the Mendelson Box that proves natures fractals are uniformly random.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 12:31:14 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2008, 02:03:21 AM »
"Is golf to be robbed of all illusion?"

This question of Behr's is a very important one and well worth considering in an age a free information as a god given right.  It can really read as going to the heart of architecture AND how (why?) we play the game. 

I am also am perplexed by Renton's comments.


"First it must display the natural beauties and the hide the natural defects of every situation.  Secondly, it should give the appearance of extent and freedom by carefully disguising or hiding the boundary.  Thirdly, it must studiously conceal every interference of art, however extensive, by which the scenery is improved, making the whole appear the production of nature only.  And fourthly, all objects of mere convenience or comfort, if incapable of being made ornamental, or of becoming proper parts of the general scenery, must be removed or concealed."

These words ring very true yet how does one explain the appeal of a place like Lawsonia, or Kington?  Perhaps it could be as simple as courses like these being very good and pleasing (and I can vouch that Kington is), but not quite the ideal and therefore not a place to be called home.  I don't really know, but there is something missing in Renton's words which can't explain the joy of the oddball course that is so out of tune with its nature taht it has both aesthetic and playing appeal.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2008, 02:18:26 AM »
John:

You should probably try to make some semi-defining point and call for discussion on it or just ask a question about some of the general drift of the remarks quoted above by a Repton or Behr.

In my opinion, the remarks of Repton in the context of golf architecture (of a particular type) probably has at least three major league holes in it, but then I'm reminded that Repton himself and his career probably preceded man-made golf archtitecture altogether and consequently what the man was talking about wasn't really about golf course architecture; it was about landscape architecture. ;)

Some, perhaps many, think they are very closely connected or are perhaps even one and the same somehow. I certainly don't consider myself one of them who thinks that way.

TEP,

Interesting response.  The Repton quote seems directly from someone who builds gardens, an early proponent of minimalist garden architecture.

As for attempting to make a "self-defining" point or ask a question to lead the discussion in a specific direction...

Well, I wasn't completely happy with the post when I threw it out there.  It isn't intentionally vague.  I generally agree with Behr and Repton.  Behr is exceptionally long winded and complex in his analysis.  I try to distill thoughts down to the simplest possible thought, and I'm currently running a few phrases through the hopper to see how they sound.

"Great golf looks great" is more accurate than "If it looks great, then it is great golf".  I have played courses that looked like a 10 from the tee, but disappointed me somewhat.  Perhaps the greenside play was repetitive, small greens heavily guarded with bunkers that required lots of flop shots.

In general, I think you can see the great golf.  I also think that undisturbed landforms and natural looking manufactured forms look better and play better.  However, the firmness of the turf makes a huge difference in the variety of shots available.  I think you can see that too, and if you can't see it on the first hole, by the fourth hole it is foremost in your mind.

Now that a few friends have responded to the original post, I'm not concerned about leading the discussion in a specific direction.  Just let the philosophers in the group take the discussion in any direction they choose.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2008, 02:23:46 AM »
"It must be evident that there are two methods in which golf architecture is pursued."

This sort of Manichean analysis has been detrimental to the discourse on this site over the years.


I looked up Manichean in the online dictionary.  I believe Michael is saying is that the discussion group tends to look at architecture as either good or evil, light or dark.

Very fair.  I like to look at trees and birds and rocks, but if I play a manufactured golf course, and by the end of the round I realize I've hit nothing but delightful shots all day long, I'm starting to fall in love with the way that course looks.

Rich Goodale

Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2008, 03:15:36 AM »
One of my Professors of Manicheanism used to say:

"There are two kinds of people in the world--those who divide things into two and those who do not."
« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 04:26:15 AM by Rich Goodale »

Tom Naccarato

Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2008, 04:15:14 AM »
J-PP,
Which two are you? ;)

Rich Goodale

Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2008, 04:31:30 AM »
J-PP,
Which two are you? ;)

Mon Cher Ami

Firstly I am typographicallydyslexic, so I have cleaned up my post above, but then again I rage against those word-Nazis who can't read between the tyops to see what each of us are saying.

Regarding GCA, regardless of what Behr may or may not have said, there is neither right nor wrong in arhcitecture, just various shades of what works and does not work, both esthetically (form) and practically (function).

Parodi
« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 09:25:22 AM by Rich Goodale »

Tom Naccarato

Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2008, 09:06:40 AM »
I bow down to your infinite wisdom. I look to it as direction. To hell with the word-Nazis.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2008, 09:54:33 AM »
Sean, Tom Paul's first response in this thread highlights the differences between gca and LA.

The archie who appears to break all of Max's wisdom, yet is still accepted is Pete Dye. Some of his intentional features could not be further from a blending if nature.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2008, 10:18:21 AM »
Michael Moore,

Is there not a simple dichotomy in architectural philosophy self-evident between an approach that sees the pre-existing land and its forms as something almost reverential and by definition unique, which is to be tampered with as little as possible to prepare it for golf, and one which sees the existing land as strictly raw materials as in a sandbox, or carton of playdoh, which is only there to be shaped to the designer's will?

Mike -

I would not call it "simple dichotomy" but rather a continuum, and I would note that I have always learned the most on this site when people are discussing the appearance, playability, and maintainability of specific features.

Based on a superficial assessment of how others had presented the writings, I had always thought that Max Behr was a subtle and nuanced critic. With its inflammatory language and false dualism, this excerpt is just another rant, dolled up with a fancy vocabulary.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2008, 10:50:10 AM »
Michael - I think Behr was in fact a subtle thinker (if you allow for some of the high-blown rhetoric that flowed from the heat of long-ago and now long-forgotten battles); it's how his writings have been presented since then -- by me, for example -- that give them a (wrongly) Manichean air.   

Mike C - That said, I think you're right in your binary breakdown - we can all try to be as nuanced and understanding as possible, but in terms of an architect's basic intention and point of view, I do think there's a division between the reverential and the utilitarian (or the sacred and the profane, to get all Manichean about it).

Adam - thanks. I have to think about that some more.

Peter

Steve Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2008, 11:04:12 AM »
I am forever confounded and confused about how many contributors to this site overtly refute the relationship between Landscape ARCHITECTURE and Golf Course ARCHITECTURE. 

One has to grant that the fact that the two are specialties within a larger design field, yes? 

And can't we all further agree that the two are directly and explicitly concerned with the deliberate alteration of the land (or sometimes the conscious lack of alteration) to create use areas for specific purposes, whether they be recreation, enjoyment, etc?  While the profession/industry of landscape architecture does include a heavy dose of residential design, an idea to which most people unfortunately associate with the profession, this is not the focus of the field, and neither is it the focus of an undergraduate or graduate education in landscape architecture. 

The focus is on OPEN SPACE PLANNING, which we must also agree is intimately tied to golf course design.  Is it any surprise that a number of pre-eminent  golf designers, e.g. Brauer, Doak, Devries, etc. (and probably some not so pre-eminent designers) possess a formal education in Landscape Architecture?  Many students quite logically enter these programs with golf course design as their intended career path.  Why would they waste their time with an education that wouldn't provide the fundamental backgrounds for their careers as a golf course designer?  Indeed, the lessons learned from someone like Repton, or Olmsted, or McHarg, or (insert Landscape Architect here) are invaluable to the golf course designer.  History, landform, grading and drainage, etc.  These were all learned during formal studies at accredited schools of Landscape Architecture and they are all lessons that are used directly, or sometimes abstracted, on a day-to-day basis to fit the specialized design field that is golf course architecture.  Obviousy, the nuances of the education are/were established by years of practical experience in the field, but the fundamentals were often introduced during this education. 

There are, of course, many instances of talented individuals who learned almost everything in the field (the dead guys, Pete Dye, etc.), but this should in no way detract from the pronounced relationship between Landcape Architecture and Golf Course Architecture.  I will concede that there are errors in assuming that anything that Repton wrote is as valuable to golf course design as something that Behr may have written.  The two were never intended to be used in the same context, but that is not to say that they cannot be, or should not be, understood in similar contexts.  Indeed, this is the very principle behind using similies and/or metaphorical speech (to say that something is "LIKE" something else, not to say that it "IS" something else).  I would recommend, however, that detractors of this relationship please speak soon with a Landscape Architect to see what it is that he/she actually learned in school, and what they actually do in practice.  This could then be cross-referenced with what a Golf Course Architect does and I think that you will see for yourself this very clear relationship between Landscape Architecture and Golf Course Architecture.
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2008, 11:13:27 AM »
...
Garland,
Isn't it something like the Mendelson Box that proves natures fractals are uniformly random.

Mendelson Box? Mandelbrot Set? uniformly random?

Adam, I am slightly confused by your message. It is true that fractals are very uniform. Such true fractals are not to be seen in nature. However, if you apply a bit of randomness to the formulae that generate them, they mimic nature very closely. The are most definitely not truly random, nor are those pertubations that mimic nature truly random as they involve the repetitive application of the same formula. But, perhaps that is what you meant by uniformly random.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2008, 11:27:33 AM »
Garland, Thanx Mandelbrot sets, yes thats exactly what I meant, on both counts.


"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2008, 11:31:21 AM »
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2008, 01:24:05 PM »


« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 01:51:11 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle