[John Gosselin]

IMHO, a raked bunker bunker is still a hazard for the majority of amateur golfers.

[Jon Heise]

Umm, most bunkers that I get into that HAVE rakes are usually NOT raked anyway, so...  just get rid of 'em!

[Tom Naccarato]

IMHO, a raked bunker bunker is still a hazard for the majority of amateur golfers.

Nobody is saying it isn't. Its just that it has been dumbed-down to a great effect.

Let me ask you something: Do you think that this bunker would be better, more effective as a hazard if it was raked or un-raked?



The purpose of hazards like this are to become legendary, fearsome, enticing. This is where the hazard itself becomes a legendary hazard in that regard, no different then standing on the 5th tee at Pine Valley, hoping that you can not only make it over the water--which is the secondary fear--but also if you can make it past the hill-ish nature of the approach and everything in front of it including the water.

The fear of a scraggy, unkept hazard--in your mind--gets into your space so-to-speak. Its supposed to make you feel uncomfortable, especially if your an "Americanized" golfer that has been weened on fairness.

Sancho Panza, its your turn to teach these windmills.....(tag your it!)

[TEPaul]

What I'd like to see some clubs try is to provide rakes but only have the crew touch up the bunkers about once a month (except for washouts or whatever) and make the players the only ones to use rakes. Make the players learn how to clean up after themselves if they want consistent sand conditions! In the process they could save some serious man-hour maintenance dollars!

[Kalen Braley]

I think Tom Paul is on the best path here.

Let the players regulate the bunkers to do some cost cutting..

On a lot of courses here in the SLC area, its the oddest thing.  Folks are always really good about keeping the bunkers tidy after they get in, but horrible with fixing ball marks on the greens.  I have no idea what to make of it as the latter takes far less work and time than the former...oh well.

[Tom Naccarato]

Big Love,
SLC?

How many Mormons do you think are going to accept that practice on Long Island?

Do you actually think that someone at a "tony" club on Long Island is going to want to rake his own bunker? If your insisting a caddie do it, well then how long do you think that green committee and the superintendent think thats going to last before they get involved in that situation?

The only thing that can happen is that you dictate from the very, and I mean VERY beginning that, this is the way its going to be and then never change it. End of story. Because if you do change it, you'll never be able to go back again--ever. It becomes practice at that club that, this is what we do here--no different then HAVING to eat snapper soup at Pine Valley. Its a requirement. Don't bother trying to change it--you wouldn't want to and if you think you can change it, well then your better off never going to Pine Valley ever! You don't belong there! (Tom Paul, I think Mayor Ott would be very proud of me for saying that, wherever he is; and to sound like George "Win One For The Gipper" Gipp, "someday Rock, when the chips are down, tell them NOT TO RAKE THE FUCKING BUNKERS!) 

Paul Cowley, Tag, your it again!

[JESII]

I like the idea of not raking bunkers...mostly because if they are viewed as penal hazards maybe we could lose about half of them...

[Kalen Braley]

I'm no BigLove, I've only got one wife thank you and thats enough for me....although I have seen a few of those polygamist compunds while driving around town. 

While in Long Island it may seem above them to rake thier own bunkers, I think the model will work in most other places.  And if it doesn't work, then well its closer to the model you suggest because no one will be taking care of the bunkers.  In the end mgmt wins either way in decreased costs.....

[D_Malley]

agree that a hazard should be a hazard, but the obvious question is:

if we are having a tourn. and the bunkers were recently touched up raked or whatever you want to call it.  wouldn't the early players have an advantage over the afternoon players.

[Kalen Braley]

agree that a hazard should be a hazard, but the obvious question is:

if we are having a tourn. and the bunkers were recently touched up raked or whatever you want to call it.  wouldn't the early players have an advantage over the afternoon players.

D Mal,

This is always the case to every tourney anyways, specifically as it pertains to weather conditions. 

[Tom Naccarato]

You know, the first season, the entire season Bill denied, denied, denied, all while sneaking back and forth between three houses.....In fact, that very same first season the guy couldn't get enough Viagara. He has that going for him too.

I think you should go with it.

Getting back to the point:

The point to all of this is, why not rake? or "To Rake or Not to Rake, that is the question...." (I think.)

To answer D_Malley's question first, its called Rub of the Green. Is every stretch of turf perfect for each and every shot? The beauty of this Sport and its challenge is the challenge with from nature. If player "B" tees off and land at the same exact spot, 6 inches apart from Player "A", And suddenly as Player "A" addresses his approach with a stiff breeze in his face, he hits it and it goes into a bunker. If player "B" proceeds to address his ball and the wind dies down before he even picks a club out of his bag, giving him advantage of less wind and sticks it to with-in 3 feet, what do we call that?

(I call it a natural fucking, but that's only in jest!)

Actually it is RUB OF THE GREEN. Luck. Good luck and bad. Why should it be any different for a foot print in the sand? As the Minimalist Manifesto states, PLAY IT AS IT LIES! We hit the ball and enjoy the sport. If every shot was perfect, we would be bored to tears and not play.

Now getting back to the original point,

Use any major city or town in America and tell me that bunker raking--when the first rake was laid down near a sand hazard, became a practice that will never be broken on that course. The "unknowing" call it good etiquette to properly rake the sand after extrication, but the beauty of the sport is its naturalness. The truest beauty of all. (well maybe if Kate Winslet wasn't standing near-by.)

Yes, today it is common practice and I use a rake because of the local code and ethics, but honestly, there is nothing better then being challenged with a fried egg, foot print lie and then literally blowing it out of there and still have a chance at par. I know I'm in a very weak minority here, and you may call it Alpine Golf if you wish, but honestly, it isn't. Its just willing to be able to suffice that every shot is a challenge and to accept that challenge is the truest source of sportsmanship. That is the sport of Golf's essence.

It just can't get any simpler then that.

[paul cowley]

Keep it up Don....Sanchos had a long one...

Loved the photo.

[Tom Naccarato]

Sancho,
You liked that eh?

Well how about chasing some windmills with this one?!?!?

[Sean_A]

You know, the first season, the entire season Bill denied, denied, denied, all while sneaking back and forth between three houses.....In fact, that very same first season the guy couldn't get enough Viagara. He has that going for him too.

I think you should go with it.

Getting back to the point:

The point to all of this is, why not rake? or "To Rake or Not to Rake, that is the question...." (I think.)

To answer D_Malley's question first, its called Rub of the Green. Is every stretch of turf perfect for each and every shot? The beauty of this Sport and its challenge is the challenge with from nature. If player "B" tees off and land at the same exact spot, 6 inches apart from Player "A", And suddenly as Player "A" addresses his approach with a stiff breeze in his face, he hits it and it goes into a bunker. If player "B" proceeds to address his ball and the wind dies down before he even picks a club out of his bag, giving him advantage of less wind and sticks it to with-in 3 feet, what do we call that?

(I call it a natural fucking, but that's only in jest!)

Actually it is RUB OF THE GREEN. Luck. Good luck and bad. Why should it be any different for a foot print in the sand? As the Minimalist Manifesto states, PLAY IT AS IT LIES! We hit the ball and enjoy the sport. If every shot was perfect, we would be bored to tears and not play.

Now getting back to the original point,

Use any major city or town in America and tell me that bunker raking--when the first rake was laid down near a sand hazard, became a practice that will never be broken on that course. The "unknowing" call it good etiquette to properly rake the sand after extrication, but the beauty of the sport is its naturalness. The truest beauty of all. (well maybe if Kate Winslet wasn't standing near-by.)

Yes, today it is common practice and I use a rake because of the local code and ethics, but honestly, there is nothing better then being challenged with a fried egg, foot print lie and then literally blowing it out of there and still have a chance at par. I know I'm in a very weak minority here, and you may call it Alpine Golf if you wish, but honestly, it isn't. Its just willing to be able to suffice that every shot is a challenge and to accept that challenge is the truest source of sportsmanship. That is the sport of Golf's essence.

It just can't get any simpler then that.

Of course you are right Naccers.  It should be a green keeper job once a week or whatever to rake up the bunkers.  However, my problem with unraked bunkers is that so many courses have so many bunkers - most of which were not intended to be the harsh hazard (there are grades of hazard difficulty no?) they would become if unraked - that the game would just be TOO much of a lottery.  I am not saying that luck should be eliminated, just that luck shouldn't be the most important factor.  Honestly, do you know what I think would happen in a rakeless world (given how many bunkers there are these days)?  I believe folks would do whatever it took to avoid bunkers rather than challenge them.  In essence, the game would be too punitive for the average nooker.  So, by all means, pull the rakes, but fill in many bunkers as well.

Ciao

[paul cowley]

Sean....I'm thinking that if this now official Recession persists for a while you will getting your bunker closure wish not because of their degree of difficulty.....but from their cost to maintain.

The superfluous will grow in while the strong will survive.

Actually, a Club looking to downsize or reduce bunker area would be well served by chucking the rakes for a month, and then note the bunker play patterns.

....but we've been here before. 100+ years from now a whole new generation of Designers will make a fair living by digging out and rediscovering all sorts of bunkers that were left to go fallow in [hopefully not] our times.

Didn't Tilly make a modest living in the 30's advising clubs how to downsize?

[Sean_A]

Sean....I'm thinking that if this now official Recession persists for a while you will getting your bunker closure wish not because of their degree of difficulty.....but from their cost to maintain.

The superfluous will grow in while the strong will survive.

Actually, a Club looking to downsize or reduce bunker area would be well served by chucking the rakes for a month, and then note the bunker play patterns.

....but we've been here before. 100+ years from now a whole new generation of Designers will make a fair living by digging out and rediscovering all sorts of bunkers that were left to go fallow in [hopefully not] our times.

Didn't Tilly make a modest living in the 30's advising clubs how to downsize?

Paul

I understand what you are saying, but these are different issues.   Filling in bunkers solely for savings or because of difficulty could lead to well placed bunkers being sacrificed.  I am not keen on that. I want to see the bunkers which are add ons (placing a bunker cluster where one will do very well), framing jobbies or eye candy bunkers done away with.  Furthermore, instead of using bunkers so much I want to see archies get creative with their hazards.  If these sorts of courses were designed I would be 100% behind rake removal.  I would have thought by now you lot would be bored with using so much sand to create interest and challenge.  Give me a design like Lederach and you can do whatever you like to the sand! 

Ciao

[paul cowley]

Sean....re read and you will note that I wasn't advocating filling in bunkers that 'worked'....but instead advocating for the elimination of the superfluous and identifying and preserving the important ones.

....but I know...its late for you, but early for me......

[Eric Morrison]

"If every shot was perfect, we would be bored to tears and not play."

Do the pros get bored to tears and quit?

[Ken Moum]

"If every shot was perfect, we would be bored to tears and not play."

Do the pros get bored to tears and quit?

I don't think so.

The only golfers I hear talking about courses (or a set of tees) being too easy are amateurs.

That would be a guy who's shooting 85 and complaining about having wedges to too many par fours.

K

[Eric Morrison]

the quote was made in reference to having perfect lies everywhere, including bunkers...the pros are always griping if they have less than a perfect lie in the bunkers...re:the Memorial furrow rake episode and the expectation of bunker maintenance today.

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