[Nicholas Coppolo]

Anyone know? 

Any courses that do not use/provide them?

[Paul Carey]

Two courses that used to have no, or very few rakes were Pine Valley and Sand Hills.  I am not sure if this is still the case.

[Tom Naccarato]

At Friar's Head, there will never be ANY rakes.

Rakes are a waste of time and money. Using two clubs to clean-up foot prints and club gashings is far better.

[Dean Stokes]

At Friar's Head, there will never be ANY rakes.

Rakes are a waste of time and money. Using two clubs to clean-up foot prints and club gashings is far better.

........if the people who are cleaning up the mess know what they are doing.

[Matt OBrien]

Two courses that used to have no, or very few rakes were Pine Valley and Sand Hills.  I am not sure if this is still the case.

PV does not use rakes.

[Karl Bernetich]

Are rakes typically removed for the winter ?
Our course did not have any rakes out this weekend.
I played Fri and Sat ... it rained today in DE.

So is it better to try and smooth out the sand or leave it as it is when there are no rakes ?

[Matt OBrien]

Im pretty sure they take them in for the winter so they dont break or crack when they get cold and snow covered. Just like they do at PV or any other course like that just smooth it over with your feet or club and move on.

[paul cowley]

I'd ban rakes except in the hands of maintenance personnel for routine touching up....its the rub of the green for me.

Maybe then people will have a greater tendency to avoid them, instead of hoping to hit in one to get a better lie.....lets make them HAZARDS again.

Like they used to be.

[Sean_A]

I really like the idea of chucking rakes and just letting the grounds crew rake whenever.  But I am also in favour of filling in bunkers! 

Ciao

[Matt OBrien]

I think you may say that rakes dont look good and we should go back to when we didnt have rakes, but when you are playing in a tournement and your ball lands in a footprint that someone didnt brush over you will be asking for rakes again.

[Tom Naccarato]

At Friar's Head, there will never be ANY rakes.

Rakes are a waste of time and money. Using two clubs to clean-up foot prints and club gashings is far better.

........if the people who are cleaning up the mess know what they are doing.

Why? A hazard is a hazard. The task is to stay out of it. That is unless your like me and are waiting for the challenge. I don't care if an opponent buried his foot into it just to disrupt my play. (which if it was me, I would never want to win that way. I wouldn't consider that an honorable way of winning, thus not really winning.) To me there is no greater challenge, no better way to overcome challenge then the acceptance of that challenge--the rub of the green, or in this case, sand. Its where the greatest, most memorable shots come from. Anything less then that is of the scorecard and pencil spirit and if your of that ilk you will never be an ardent student of the Sport. Your abilities are as great as the challenges you take on, head on.

You see, I think the spirit of this sport is the ability to overcome what is going on with your own physical, spiritual and mental being. How you handle yourself. I may not be as nearly as talented golfer as you, but for me, I'm being the best I can be at competing with myself. I feel the best match players are those that play themselves rather then play their opponent. Foot marks in the sand? Not a problem! Talking in my backswing? I thrive on it! But that's my opinion, and its one I'm sure will meet some opposition.

Meanwhile, feel free to do the wave in the middle of my backswing. It doesn't bother me a bit. In fact, it loosens me up and makes me realize that the Sport is much bigger then I'll ever be! 

[C. Squier]

Tom, I agree w/ you about hazards and rub of the green.....don't hit it there if you don't want a penalty.  However, I don't think it's quite fair to cite Friar's Head and Pine Valley as reasons not to have rakes.  Golfers have a higher sense of leaving a course better than they found it when at a club of that stature. 

Rakes are a reminder for players to remain courteous for others.  I can only imagine a 140 round per day public that gets rid of rakes under the guise of "rub of the green".  That will surely spiral, at first players won't rub out footprints leaving craters ALL over into not repairing ball marks, replacing divots and anything else that helps maintain a course. 

If you could keep that from happening, get rid of rakes.  But I don't think many would like hitting from one heel print into another because others are careless. 

[paul cowley]

I think you may say that rakes dont look good and we should go back to when we didnt have rakes, but when you are playing in a tournement and your ball lands in a footprint that someone didnt brush over you will be asking for rakes again.

I wouldn't.....because everyone else would be bound by the same 'rub'.

No different than complaining about losing because you had to play out of a divot.

You are looking at it from today's mindset,

If you didn't know any other condition except one with no rakes....you would be just fine with playing an unmaintained sand surface....no more than you now complain about its close cousin, the rough.

[Tom Naccarato]

Clint,
I think your leaving out one very important part in this. Great courses, in this case PRIVATE clubs--these rounds 90% of the time are going to be with a caddie who is going to be doing much of the cleaning; maintenance. Now, I'll admit that I have been fortunate to go around a course without a caddie more times then with, because I'm not really a caddie-type of guy. I find it out of my comfort zone more because I figure I would have a more likely chance to be in these club's as a caddie then actually using one!

Also, I think its partially my job to at least do the brush thing with the two clubs, cleaning up the heavy disruptance (is that a word?); and you would be surprised how good it works, leaving the surface sand more natural looking then cleanly raked with man's artificialness!

But thats me!

This isn't some sort of gimmick either. Rakes were never a part of maintenance until the 40's. (I think I read that somewhere!)

Meanwhile, gotta leave this conversation for the night. I have to go take my (a Irish fanatic) drubbing from Tim Weiman--(an USC fanatic) whose in town--down at Legends-Long Beach tonight!! Anyone whose in town and would like to join us, feel free!

[Tom Naccarato]

Thank you Paul Cowley. A person with exquisite taste and substance!

[paul cowley]

Thank you Paul Cowley. A person with exquisite taste and substance!

I've got your back man....enjoy yourself.

Slainte!

[PCCraig]

I think the problem is that a need for rakes comes from having too much sand in a bunker. That way is it hard to leave a huge hole wherever you walk. Also, its more fun to hit out of a bunker with less sand for the better player.

[paul cowley]

Now that Tommy's gone I best pick up his standard.

If he could have continued I'm sure he was about to say " Every club in the country should put a sign up on the first tee saying;

 'We are no longer maintaining our bunkers. They will be played as waste or rough areas. You are free to ground your club and remove loose impediments as long as you do not improve your lie. If you do, assess yourself a 1 stroke penalty.
As a courtesy to the other players behind you, please try to smooth over the tracks you create with your shoe or club'.....".

[Matt OBrien]

First of all Paul dont choke...
Second I think what clint said is 100% true. Take the rakes away at the private courses where the golfers respect the course but if you do so at a public course you can forget hitting into a bunker. Beginner golfers do not respect the game or the course therfore rakes are important. If you dont feel rakes should be there then dont use it and just brush it over. I just hope the next time you go in a bunker you end up in someone elses footprint.

[Scott Stambaugh]

Now that Tommy's gone I best pick up his standard.

If he could have continued I'm sure he was about to say " Every club in the country should put a sign up on the first tee saying;

 'We are no longer maintaining our bunkers. They will be played as waste or rough areas. You are free to ground your club and remove loose impediments as long as you do not improve your lie. If you do, assess yourself a 1 stroke penalty.
As a courtesy to the other players behind you, please try to smooth over the tracks you create with your shoe or club'.....".

I have played a few courses that have chosen to not put out rakes.  But, I have never played a course that, in addition to having no rakes, does not provide some level of maintenance to bunkers and/or sandy waste areas by the golf course maintenance personnel- be it with a Sand-Pro or hand raking.

Are there any courses that truly do not maintain their bunkers AT ALL?  Personally, having no rakes for players and having just the staff tend to the bunkers is probably better anyway.  As I've watched thousands of players rake themselves from bunkers, I've found there's just not many that are doing any better with a rake than they are with a club and a shoe.

Plus, it's hard to rake a bunker with a club in one hand, a cocktail in the other, all while holding a cell phone to your ear...

SS

[Tom Naccarato]

I'm back!

Thanks Paul for taking up the slack while I was out. I knew I could count on you!

Plus, it's hard to rake a bunker with a club in one hand, a cocktail in the other, all while holding a cell phone to your ear...

You forgot to mention, all while grabbing the beer cart girl's bum at the same time.....

[paul cowley]

First of all Paul dont choke...
Second I think what clint said is 100% true. Take the rakes away at the private courses where the golfers respect the course but if you do so at a public course you can forget hitting into a bunker. Beginner golfers do not respect the game or the course therfore rakes are important. If you dont feel rakes should be there then dont use it and just brush it over. I just hope the next time you go in a bunker you end up in someone elses footprint.

No Matt.....that's where we differ.

In a rakeless world I would EXPECT to be in someone else's footprint....and I would be relieved to find myself sitting up.

It's no different than when I hit in the rough and find it sitting nice and playable......I'm thankful.

I expect rakes and raking evolved from an early attempt at 'fairness'....part of the primordial ooze that created the 'fairness doctrine' and political correctness.

It really is a shame....not only because of the major costs that are required to build and maintain 'fair' bunkers....but because more than anything its taken us away from the roots of the Game.

[Ian_L]

Are there options for sand (perhaps firmer as someone suggested earlier) that could lead to the possibility of a completely unmaintained bunker that is not excessively penal?

[Tom Naccarato]

Bite your tongue!

Ian, Every golfer should be wanting to take on any hazard afforded or offered to him. That is if he is a true golfing sportsman.

Paul, We make a good tag-team!

[paul cowley]

You're right Tommy.

One day you can be Don Quixote and I'll be your sidekick, and then we could switch.....all the while tilting at bunker windmills!

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