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Sam Maryland

want to check out the finances of a private club? (link) New
« on: December 01, 2008, 10:50:47 AM »
use this link:  http://foundationcenter.org/findfunders/990finder/


private clubs that are not-for-profit file 990's that are avail for all to view and searchable at the link above. 

 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 03:23:42 PM by Sam Maryland »

Rob_Waldron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: want to check out the finances of a private club? (link)
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2008, 11:21:34 AM »
Sam

Thanks for the link. The information may be a bit dated however I have researched several clubs and found the results very interesting.

John Kavanaugh

Re: want to check out the finances of a private club? (link)
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2008, 11:30:45 AM »
I'm as much a voyeurist as the next guy but don't you feel just a bit dirty snooping like this?  What was so very interesting?

Sam Maryland

Re: want to check out the finances of a private club? (link)
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2008, 11:58:37 AM »
Rob,

it seems that most clubs file these returns at the last possible minute, including extensions.  the '07 returns are just starting to hit.


John,

it's public information...no more, no less.  however, depending on what's going on at a particular club might significantly heighten the interest in this information by the broader membership.  I am aware of one club where the board routinely denied any and all requests by a group of interested members for a set of detailed financials.  another member clued them in on this link and to say that an uproar ensued would be an understatement.  for some odd reason the board felt uncomfortable with the scrutiny -- might this be a signal that they weren't being good stewards of club assets?

John Kavanaugh

Re: want to check out the finances of a private club? (link)
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2008, 12:17:10 PM »
Oh, I get it..this is a public service kind of like telling your buds when you find out a friends wife is cheating on him.  Thanks.

I'm just getting a bit tired of the celebration of failure that seems to be taking hold of this site.  The final straw was when a member burst his brothers bubble for reasons I still have not figured out.  The most cruel thing Ran ever did was when he took our ability and right to remove ourselves from this site.  I am having serious issues being associated with the prevalent attitude posted on a daily basis reflecting situational greed wrapped in a package of false condolences. 

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: want to check out the finances of a private club? (link)
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2008, 12:30:54 PM »
Sam,
Are you interested in discussing golf course architecture or just financial aspects of golf courses?  Aren't the majority of your posts on the latter?   ???

Rob_Waldron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: want to check out the finances of a private club? (link)
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2008, 12:33:52 PM »
John

The site provides a reliable source of revenue and expense data that can be used as comparable information. Very helpful in my business!

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: want to check out the finances of a private club? (link)
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2008, 12:39:14 PM »
Interesting to see how these clubs value their land. For example TCC-Brookline list their land value at $750M and some change....but in reality that land on the open market would fetch upwards of $100,000M.

And yes according to a few high end east coast clubs I should have become a GM.
H.P.S.

Sam Maryland

Re: want to check out the finances of a private club? (link)
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2008, 12:48:34 PM »
This link provides nothing more than access to publicly available information...

...how you choose to view/characterize/use it is up to you.

I guess they make these things public for a reason?

John Kavanaugh

Re: want to check out the finances of a private club? (link)
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2008, 12:57:49 PM »
In the interest of the holidays and the destruction of a fine industry I have been working on a 12 days of Christmas song that reflects the current situation.  I kind of like the following ideas:

12 Courses Closing
11 Architects Starving
10 Superintendents Suffering
9 Associates Asphyxiating
8 Bag Boys Bawling
7 Golf Writers Garotted
6 Paychecks Checks Bouncing
5 More Demits
4 Shapers Struggling
3 Golf Magazines Folding
2 Members Staying
And a Rater playing for free

Needs a little work, some help please.

On the first day of Christmas
My architect sent to me
A rater insisting on playing for free

etc., etc...
« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 01:10:12 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: want to check out the finances of a private club? (link)
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2008, 01:06:36 PM »
use this link:  http://foundationcenter.org/findfunders/990finder/


private clubs that are not-for-profit file 990's that are avail for all to view and searchable at the link above. 

in many states info is included about the salary of the club manager...kind of interesting to see how they vary from club to club within a mid to larger sized city.

FYI.

SM

So Sam how much do you earn?

Sam Maryland

Re: want to check out the finances of a private club? (link)
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2008, 02:41:11 PM »
use this link:  http://foundationcenter.org/findfunders/990finder/


private clubs that are not-for-profit file 990's that are avail for all to view and searchable at the link above. 

in many states info is included about the salary of the club manager...kind of interesting to see how they vary from club to club within a mid to larger sized city.

FYI.

SM

So Sam how much do you earn?

it wasn't really my intention to single out club manager's but if I offended any in the process I apologize.  I mentioned it because the membership at the club I referred to in the other post was floored when they found out how much the club manager was being paid (closely guarded secret prior to finding the 990 link), especially compared to the local comp's.

after you Jon...

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: want to check out the finances of a private club? (link)
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2008, 03:18:13 PM »
Sam,

I am sure that you didn't wish to single out managers and if so it was maybe unfortunate that you chose only this example in your initial post. I am not sure that it is correct to be able to see what someone else is earning if it is not the same for all. As your reply clearly shows, you don't want to share your earnings information with the world at large and therefore maybe incouraging others to do so with manager loans is well.....

I am not interested in what you earn and my post was to make a point to ponder. I do however think you may have made one or two people on this site a little uncomfortable by encouraging people they might not even know to see how much they are earning. As I have been told occasionally after a borderline post, maybe one should think before you post.

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: want to check out the finances of a private club? (link)
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2008, 03:37:11 PM »

So Sam how much do you earn?




While you are looking at Country Clubs, you also can have a look at your favorite college ... you may be surprised (not) that some coaches show up on the top 5 salaried list ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: want to check out the finances of a private club? (link)
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2008, 04:11:40 PM »
John M. is right, you seem to have little interest in discussing matters other than those related to your fascination with the financial situation of clubs and/or resorts, which often is morbid and irresponsible speculation on the dire situation of some.  This post seems at least tangentially related.

I just checked Network Solutions and it appears that the domain "golfclubfinancials.com" is available. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: want to check out the finances of a private club? (link)
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2008, 05:04:35 PM »
Sam Maryland,

One of the difficulties in examining operating and capital budgets is the line item assignment.

At a club where I served on the board, we tried to compare budgets with other local/regional clubs.

The problem we encountered was the "assignment" of expenses on the line item budget.

Some clubs pro-rated fixed expenses to each department, others maintained a seperate category for them and other clubs did a combination, so, it's quite difficult to make accurate comparisons.

Another example is the green budget.
Some clubs allocate fuel, electricity, employee meals, employee benefits to the green budget, others to the general budget and others to a combination.

Some clubs budget and charge the green budget for landscaping around the clubhouse, tennis court maintainance, pool areas, etc. etc..

While your link is a great "general" guide, it remains very difficult to make line item comparisons.

And then you have unique circumstances.

A club like Inwood or The Creek might have expenses associated with tidal abberations, where as Winged Foot or Plainfield wouldn't have a line item for that category.

Thanks for the link

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: want to check out the finances of a private club? (link)
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2008, 05:29:32 PM »
Here JK, just for you
(with my apologies to Sammy Cahn and Jule Styne (c)1945)

Let It Snow

Oh, the money we spent was frightful,
When the mar-ket was delightful;
But now we have nothing to show,
Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow.

It doesn't show signs of stopping,
But I hope it soon stops dropping;
The bottom is way down low,
Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow.

When we finally say good night,
And we won’t take a loss anymore;
We can grab our bro-ker real tight,
And throw him from the tenth floor.

The ‘Street’ is quickly dying,
And, my dear, we're still not buy-ing;
But so long as we don’t have dough.
Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow.




"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: want to check out the finances of a private club? (link)
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2008, 05:39:13 PM »
Amen to the issues outlined by brother Mucci.  You really need the inside information about allocation for other club budgets.   

Always a fart in the meetings,   is  'where do we put the losses from the member guest' ?

Karl Bernetich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: want to check out the finances of a private club? (link)
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2008, 07:45:12 PM »


12 Total revenue                            2 , 856 , 533.
17 Total exp enses .                       3 , 599 , 446.
18 Excess or (deficit ) for the year      -742 , 913.

guess I can expect a due increase !

VALUABLE -- PUBLIC -- information.

Would you plop down a heft initiation fee with doing you due diligence ?
Would you recommend this course of action to a client ???

Sam Maryland

Re: want to check out the finances of a private club? (link) New
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2008, 07:57:40 PM »
SPBD/John M.,

Heck, you guys are easily offended aren't you.

SPBD, if you'd like to point out anything specific that I've been wrong about go right ahead and we can discuss it further. 

There are many many threads on this site on a wide variety of topics.  I've chimed in on a number of them, some about courses, some about carts, some about financials.  Possibly my posts have been skewed towards numbers oriented threads, is that illegal?

Maybe a better way to have presented this link would have been to say "if you want to find out all you can about a club before making the investment in a membership this link might help"... (I've already apologized to and club manager's I might have offended)

But again SPBD, feel free to go ahead and point out some specifics about where I may have been wrong...if you can prove it I'll be happy to say I was wrong.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 10:20:12 AM by Sam Maryland »

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: want to check out the finances of a private club? (link)
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2008, 11:24:00 PM »
SPBD/John M.,

Heck, you guys are easily offended aren't you.

SPBD, if you'd like to point out anything specific that I've been wrong about go right ahead and we can discuss it further. 

There are many many threads on this site on a wide variety of topics.  I've chimed in on a number of them, some about courses, some about carts, some about financials.  Possibly my posts have been skewed towards numbers oriented thraeds, is that illegal?

Maybe a better way to have presented this link would have been to say "if you want to find out all you can about a club before making the investment in a membership this link might help"... (I've already apologized to and club manager's I might have offended)

But again SPBD, feel free to go ahead and point out some specifics about where I have been wrong...if you can prove it I'll be happy to say I was wrong.

I'm not easily offended.  In fact, I didn't say that I was offended at all and am not sure how you read that into my post.  You can post whatever you like.  I just haven't read any of your posts that had to do with golf course architecture. I only asked if that was a topic that interested you. 

In this case, I can see where the link to club information might be of value or interest to some people.  Thanks for posting it.