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Jeffrey Prest

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« on: November 29, 2008, 05:57:31 AM »
Is anyone here planning to play to play this course this week? I understand it re-opens on Monday after its revamp. Would be interested to hear what the verdict is.


Sam Morrow

Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2008, 08:27:45 AM »
I will have to check it out next time I get to town.  Glad to hear it's opening back up, who did the renovation?

Nicholas Coppolo

Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2008, 10:10:06 AM »
Colligan Golf Design (John Colligan ASGCA)
Should be interesting.  I've always thought that this would be a wise decision, I loved playing Cedar Crest in Dallas after the Weibring reno.  I don't know how true that was to Tilly but it seems this one intends to be.

This is from his website:
"Colligan Golf Design was hired by the Municipal Golf Association - San Antonio to restore Brack to its original design. Through old Tillinghast routings and research CGD is working to bring back a course that is the foundation of municipal golf in Texas.

The final product will have more geometric lines on tees, fairways and greens; the bunkers will have simple flat bottom shapes with grass faces as "Tillie" would have had them.

The total 113.6 acre site has been restored to represent the original course, taking into account today's technological advances. It has recieved new greens, tees, bunkers, fairways, an irrigation system, bridges and cart paths all for $4.0 million dollars."

Here's a visual:



Here's pre renovation:



The front side keeps the same playing corridors but adds a ton of bunkering.  The major work is on the back side, with the creek complex coming into play on several holes now.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2008, 10:15:39 AM »
Personally, I'm very interested in learning more about the model that got this project funded and approved.

While I don't know the details of how close the restoration at Brack is to Tillinghast's original course, I'm trying to determine whether there is a 5013C model that was used to raise the funds, and where they were solicited.

It seems to me that a complete and accurate historical restoration of Cobb's Creek might be able to leverage a similar model without requiring some of the detailed items that went into the Brackenridge Park project.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2008, 10:39:46 AM »
I was surprised to hear that "Tillie" would have had simple flat-bottomed bunkers with grass faces.

But I think the routing of holes 10 & 18 is pretty cool.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2008, 10:49:46 AM »
I was surprised to hear that "Tillie" would have had simple flat-bottomed bunkers with grass faces.

But I think the routing of holes 10 & 18 is pretty cool.

Tom,

That's probably a concession to the always frugal and sensible Tillinghast, Tom.   ::) ;)

I also love to read how language is parsed and I have to wonder what it means exactly when it says that it has "been restored to represent the orginal course, taking into account today's technological advances. 

Still, that's coming from a strictly purist perspective, and in any case, it is gratifying to see one of these projects get accomplished.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2008, 10:52:44 AM »
The language is a disclaimer, admitting that you and I would tear the course apart as a true restoration, but trying to justify a use of the word anyway.

P.S. to Phil Young:  Did Tillinghast build rectangular tees?

Mike_Cirba

Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2008, 10:54:46 AM »
Tom,

Given that the word "restoration" has become virtually meaningless in recent years, at least it's encouraging they knew enough to put in a disclaimer.   ;D

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2008, 11:01:55 AM »
MikeC,

Financial support will come from an original funding agreement with the city, which created the hybrid public-private MGA-SA last spring to govern its golf operations, outside fundraising and additional money loaned against projected profits once Brackenridge is reopened. "Let's just say the race has begun," San Antonio deputy city manager Pat DiGiovanni said. "We have a lot of hard work ahead of us. If we do things the way we planned it, the city of San Antonio can expect the same on its other golf courses."

...and:
http://www.sanantonio.gov/news/NewsReleases/nr2008BrackenridgeMtg.asp?res=1024&ver=true


"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike_Cirba

Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2008, 11:05:03 AM »
Jim Kennedy,

Thanks for the info.   It certainly seems to me that some type of private/public partnership is absolutely critical to pulling this off.   

That and the good sense not to overreach or overpromise.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2008, 11:18:33 AM »
Is that the little tourist train ride on the right side of the picture?Not sure if it even still exists.In the late 60s or early 70s it got held up and the tourists robbed.Probably the last great train robberies in this part of the world.

Tom Naccarato

Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2008, 11:37:25 AM »
Tom,
I was a bit puzzled by that statement also. It has me stumbling to The Course Beautiful to see these example which examples that I might have over-looked and that this Tillinghast-expert John Colligan has shown us.....

I have longed observed that surprisingly few courses show evidence of proper introduction of sand into the bunker slopes and floors. In the building of sand pits at greens and through the fairway, the work usually calls for the use of scoops, removing earth and fill generally from one area and depositing it over another area, close by, and thus providing material for impressively and contouring along natural lines.  This removal of fill leaves excavations of generous proportions, particularly if the building has been done vigorously and impressively, as it should be.  As the sloping banks are grassed they meet the floor of the excavated area and if nothing further was done about it there be this condition--monotonous banks of grass meeting the flat floor, which frequently is covered with sand.

Now the covering of these tremendous floors requires a great deal of sand, an alarming expensive item when the work is remote from sections where the clean white sand is to be had. The proper treatment of the excavated areas requires far less sand and grass in harmonious framing of the green itself and brining into full view of the player much of the sand of the hazard which is otherwise not visible from any distance when it is confined to a flat floor. Obviously this makes necessary the introduction of sand into the slopes and a great reduction of the floor area of the excavation, which now in reality becomes a guarding pit. This reduction is accomplished by contouring of the floor pit, brining long and gradual slopes into it from the fairway sides and grassing these, thus reducing by half or more three-quarters of the floor of the pit and the necessary quantity of sand, which is now confined to a much smaller area closer to the outside slopes of the green and eating well up into these slopes, from which the turf has been removed to receive it. It is quite obvious that a little ingenuity in working the sand into the grassed slopes will produce an entirely natural appearance of wind-blown sand in great variety.

--Albert Warren Tillinghast, from The Course Beautiful

I would like to see the historical information that Mr. Colligan has dug up for this explanation from his website; or is this just an observation he has found on well-weathered Tillinghast-designed golf courses which may have been fucked with over time?

Mike_Cirba

Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2008, 11:44:15 AM »
I've always objected to this whole idea of stereotypical "Ross bunkers", because the historical pictorial evidence suggests a much greater breadth and variety than what is being portrayed in many restoration efforts.

However, by comparison, to suggest that Tillinghast had a stereotypical design style for his bunkering is pretty ludicrous.   He did repeat bunkering patterns, but probably as much as anyone in the history of the game he tried to blend his bunkering lines (internal and external) into natural terrain and unique site characteristics.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2008, 12:01:52 PM »
I've been following this restoration project ever since it was discussed and John Colligan was chosen to do it. Personally I am very impressed based simply on the photographs (nearly 100) that they've sent me as it progressed through completion.

They laid out a drawing of the original course over the aerial that is shown on here in Nicholas' posting. By doing this it enabled them to restore many of the original features on about 15 of the holes. Unfortunately the highway that borders the upper right corner is located on the site of three of the original holes. In fact there is a green site directly across the upper end of the road from the course that is in a small public park. This had obvious effects on just how much could be restored and especially on how many of the original angles and hazards could be preserved; still, from what the photos show against the original plans and old photos from Tilly's day, it appears that they have done a remarkable job. I will try to post some photographs to show this.

Among the things brought back is a number of square greens, just as they were originally designed! The restoring of the creek that wandered through the site and was dried up. This was and is once again an important feature on a good number of the holes. They even dug out and rebuilt original stone bridges that will once again be used.

Most important of all was their approach toward the budget. They explained to each contractor bidding that the cost was fixed in stone and that there would be NO "EXTRAS" so they should bid accordingly. The project came in under budget, on time and I believe it will be very well-received by all. I am hoping to be there in January to see it for myself.

Tom Doak, you asked "Did Tillinghast build rectangular tees?" Yes he did, but he by no means did this as a standard. For example, he preferred tees on one-shotters to be as wide as possible and also at an angle to the green site so that the shot angles and hole distance could vary from day-to-day. This would also allow for variations in wind to be accounted for fairly.

I think what is meant here when they speak of them being rebuilt "along geometric lines" is that the tees seem to be a bit wider than usual so that variability of marker location can be more than simply front-to-back, but a bit side-to-side as well. I will see if I can post some of these photos as well.

You also mentioned that you were, "surprised to hear that "Tillie" would have had simple flat-bottomed bunkers with grass faces."

Frankly, I am not surprised to hear someone say this. I have spoken to many architects who have told me that a true Tillinghast bunker has flashed faces and others who say the opposite. Others who say they were flat-bottomed while others proclaimed them to be massive and deep. They are all correct, yet at the same time, mistaken.

Tilly had an interesting "style" when it came to bunker design... he had none. By that I mean that as often as he would design a bunker deep with a flashed-face and filled with bays, capes and fingers, he would also do them with grass faces and flat bottoms or ovoid without much detail and depth. He quite often designed bunkers with remarkably different features not only on the same course, but even on the same hole.

Recently I spoke with an architect who wanted to know whether Tilly employed sand-faced bunkers on a particular site in its design or if they were flat-bottomed with grass faces. He cited an example of Winged Foot and said that he had seen photos from the '20's where the bunkers had grass faces. I emailed him two photos to answer. The first is one of the 18th green taken for the 1929 Open. One can clearly see the left FRONT bunker having a grass-face that comes down about 75% of it with the bottom being flat and somewhat narrow. The other was a photo taken of Bobby Jones playing out of one of the BACK left bunkers on this same hole during this same championship. It is quite clear that both back bunkers have flashed-sand faces and are large.

Two totally different bunker styles just 50 or so feet apart.

Why did Tilly do this? What made Tilly decide to use various bunker styles in this manner? The answer lay in two things. How he viewed the play into the green and the timeframe when the course was deigned.

The most important aspect of any Tillinghast design is the green entrances. Tilly wrote about this numerous times. He believed in designing hazards that would play as true hazards and punish the poor play, but to do so in as fair a manner as possible. What I mean by this is that he designed his holes to reward shots placed in specific locations. The reward would be a preferred angle into the green from the best of lies. Many of these were close by fairway hazards and so risk/reward is magnified.

Now many of these preferred lies would then require shots played with clubs that would cause either a low or high trajectory. With this in mind, he would often times, especially in the 1911-1918 era, design greenside bunkers with grass faces so that shots into them would not bury in the face at extreme angles to the player, but would either bounce of it and down into the sand or get stuck in the rough grass. In either case it would have been punishing but fair in his mind.

From the late teens onward, with equipment advances and golf courses being designed with much greater length, he saw that play then and in the future would allow for shots hit into greens to arrive from greater heights and that play from bunkers was becoming far easier for all. He then began to more predominately use sand-faced bunkers that were deep, irregular as well as narrow in areas that were flat. These narrow flat areas was one of the commonalities in his design philosophy throughout his career. In his mind a big bunker with gentle slopes was far easier and less punishing of the poor play than one that was large, deep and afforded few good stances. It is for that reason that he used fingers, bays, etc...

In restoring a Tilly bunker than, the shape is designed in direct relation to the angle of play into it from the preferred lies.

In the case of Brackenridge Park, a pretty early Tilly design, many, though not all, of the bunkers were designed with grass faces and flat bottoms.



Tom Naccarato

Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2008, 12:05:20 PM »
Mike,
I think the proof is in the pudding which I've posted--Tillinghast's own words on the subject of bunker construction.

While someone might say, well that might be formulaic in its description, well it would be a weak argument at best, discounting the creative bent of A.W. Tillinghast, who for the most part was a very creative, observant man. Honestly, lets not beat around the bush here--Mr. Colligan's description of Tillinghast style speaks for itself--the lack of historical content, or the very least ignorance to historical content in his description in is master plan. Nothing but "Archi-speak" for the unknowing, unwilling supervisor(s) who no doubt green-lighted this project.

I hope Brackenridge Park comes out good. They should thank God I don't live in San Antonio if it doesn't.

Tom Naccarato

Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2008, 12:11:59 PM »
Phil,
do you have any original photos of Brackenridge Park to show this?

Yes, I agree Tillinghast had several different design-looks when it came to the appearance of his bunkers, but the style of how it was built wasn't all that far off from the description. (honestly you and I now both know that SFGC's wild and ragged bunker designs weren't really Tillinghast's, but now more Billy Bell's or do you refute that finding?)

Phil, Did they fly you out there to consult with them, or was it all done in correspondence over the phone?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2008, 12:39:28 PM »
Phil:

Thanks for your long and inclusive answer.

My earlier post did not mean to suggest that Tillinghast only had one bunker style; I know better than to typecast a great architect.  I was just objecting to a quote which did make it sound like Tillinghast employed only one bunker style ... and further, one that we know from experience wasn't always his first choice.

P.S.  I was very surprised when you included Brackenridge in your list of Tillie's ten most important courses.  So, I'm glad to hear it is being restored.

Tom Naccarato

Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2008, 12:40:40 PM »
Or remodeled......

Tom Naccarato

Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2008, 12:43:25 PM »
Two totally different bunker styles just 50 or so feet apart.

I've heard you can now see this at Baltusrol with the recent Rees Jones work. In fact it is now three or four, maybe five different bunker styles...

Phil_the_Author

Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2008, 01:03:17 PM »
Tom D,

No problems... I know for a fact that you have a terrific understanding of Tilly's design for bunkers and other hazards. It shows in your work at SFGC!

What most people forget is just how old BP really is. Tilly was contacted very early on and he designed it at a time when his bunkers were less dynamic!

I know that a number of people were very surprised to see me list BP as among his 10 most significant designs. Some thought by that, that I was saying 10 best. I didn't mean it that way, and you also know that. BP was a major commission for him and showed his ability to design and oversee a project anywhere in the nation at a time when such a thing was quite rare. Though hius name was well-known, his architectural skills weren't and this job led to others far away from the Northeast.

Tom N, Check your email in a few minutes for a few BP photos... Also, I didn't consult though I would have loved to! I've just been a very interested on-looker to it...
« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 01:08:47 PM by Philip Young »

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2008, 04:19:29 PM »
Anyone know what happened to the purported re-opening in November?  Acc. to the website, the course is still closed (am visiting SA to watch the mighty Wildcats administer a beating to the lads from Mizzou).

Trey Kemp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2008, 04:58:01 PM »
Mark,

The course had a soft opening in October and opened for regular play on December 1st.  The municipal courses in San Antonio have  a new website, it is www.alamocitygolftrail.com.
twitter.com/TreyKempGCA

Phil_the_Author

Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2008, 08:09:43 PM »
For those thaqt don't know, Trey works with John Colligan and is responsible mfor a great deal of the wonderful work done at BP.

Ask away as I'm sure he'd love to answer any and all questions about the project!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2008, 08:36:42 PM »
Tom D,

No problems... I know for a fact that you have a terrific understanding of Tilly's design for bunkers and other hazards. It shows in your work at SFGC!

What most people forget is just how old BP really is. Tilly was contacted very early on and he designed it at a time when his bunkers were less dynamic!

I know that a number of people were very surprised to see me list BP as among his 10 most significant designs. Some thought by that, that I was saying 10 best. I didn't mean it that way, and you also know that. BP was a major commission for him and showed his ability to design and oversee a project anywhere in the nation at a time when such a thing was quite rare. Though hius name was well-known, his architectural skills weren't and this job led to others far away from the Northeast.

Tom N, Check your email in a few minutes for a few BP photos... Also, I didn't consult though I would have loved to! I've just been a very interested on-looker to it...


Philip, on another Tilly topic, is anything happening with the Tallahassee (Capital City Club) renovation?  I haven't heard anything from Steve Dana of Jerry Pate Golf Design lately.








Phil_the_Author

Re: Brackenridge Park, San Antonio
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2008, 10:47:48 PM »
Bill,

As of today, I am unaware that they (Capital City CC) have officially contracted with any architectural firm. The club is in dire straits financially with a large number of members having left the club in the last two years ndue to the severe green(s) problems and the projected costs to fix them and restore the course.

As you know, it was my understanding in September that they were going to Hire the Jerry Pate organization. I have been told that since then they have removed the existing board and replaced them with one that wants to attempt an ovberseeding project to try and fix the greens. This despite a commissioned study that specifically recommended that they don't do it. I am really hoping that they get lucky and save them.

For those that don't know, this is a Tillinghast redesign of an existing H.H. Barker nine-hole course with an additional original design of nine new holes. It is a stunning piece of property with the holes cut into an old-world forest of wondrous oak trees. It is the first and only golf course I ever walked onto where my first thought was that these trees needed to be saved rather than thinned out.

I can't tell you how much I hope they can find a way to save and restore it. It could be a wonderful course. I would say it is
50/50 whether they are able to do it or will end up closing their doors.