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George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eden versus Short
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2008, 10:48:22 PM »
Tommy Sparks - unfortunately you may have a bit more time on your hands than I do at this time - but I will find the CBM quote about 8-TOC for you - bear with me I have quite a number of original articles he wrote over the years

I have a lot of Macdonald material here and it's in there someplace (or why the heck would I say it ..... duh   :P

........ it actually surprised me when I read it. It almost seemed like a second thought on his part concerning the inspiration

Why this CBM interest by a left-coaster?  hah

I don't know the Mackenzie timeline or whether he came back to see 18-Lido
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Tom Naccarato

Re: Eden versus Short
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2008, 11:31:01 PM »
Uncle George,
Its all merely for context. I just want to see the context! (but thinking about it now, maybe also content!)

I'm assuming they are from GI?

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eden versus Short
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2008, 11:14:48 AM »
I find it interesting that William Gordon built an Eden on the Grace Course at Saucon Valley in the early 1960's. I believe he communicated by mail with an engineer in Scotland who sent him the exact specifications of the original, and he built this:



You can't tell by the picture, but the green has the approptiate severe back to front tilt. Over is dead. The only bailout is short right, over the cockleshell bunker. The trees in this picture hide the Hill bunker, but it is a beauty, and surrounded by 10 inch gnarly rough.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eden versus Short
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2008, 01:48:53 PM »
I find it interesting that William Gordon built an Eden on the Grace Course at Saucon Valley in the early 1960's. I believe he communicated by mail with an engineer in Scotland who sent him the exact specifications of the original, and he built this:



You can't tell by the picture, but the green has the approptiate severe back to front tilt. Over is dead. The only bailout is short right, over the cockleshell bunker. The trees in this picture hide the Hill bunker, but it is a beauty, and surrounded by 10 inch gnarly rough.

Pretty cool that he even included the Shell bunker!

I don't know if it's the elevation from which this photo was taken, but the back of the green does not look as much above Strath as the Eden at St Andrews.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eden versus Short
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2008, 06:20:48 PM »
This picture is taken from a very high elevation, perhaps a crane. The back of the green is probably six feet higher than the front. Alas, I can't compare it to the original as I have yet to play the Old Course :(

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eden versus Short
« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2008, 06:57:54 PM »
I'm very lucky to have played Eden and Short at both TOC and NGLA.  FWIW I preferred the Eden of TOC to NGLA.  TOC's Eden is absolutely terrifying in competition and one of the most difficult shots with any significant wind.  Into the wind its almost impossible to hit it hard enough to even get to the green and overclubbing and risking going long and having a downhill and downwind pitch can bring 5 or 6 into play. 

Downwind it is as precise a shot as you can imagine trying to just clear the front bunker while holding the green that despite its tremendous front to back pitch is very firm.  You seem to always end up above the hole and two putting almost always means holeing an eight to ten foot second putt.

NGLA's Eden is beautiful and I think MacDonald felt his forced carry over the small ponds was an improvement over TOC as TOC "allowed" a topped or running shot to escape any penalty.  Overall though, the original is far more terrifying and memorable.

However, give me NGLA's Short over TOC's Short any day.  #8 at TOC has never done anything for me.  I know the simplicity of the tiny front bunker and the enormous, seemingly impossible to miss green are supposed to sneak up on you but it just seems a bit bland to me :o  Maybe before yardages it was a sneaky little "fooler" hole but now it's just  a way to go from 7 to 9.

But, at NGLA the tiny, downhill Short is one of the coolest, most interesting greens I have ever seen.  Many greens within a large green that does a much better job of allowing one to get careless with such a short iron.  In this case, MacDonald vastly improved upon the original :D 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Eden versus Short
« Reply #31 on: November 24, 2008, 07:24:39 PM »

Neither one of the Short holes blew me away.  NGLA was better than TOC.  Good holes, but certainly nothing that I stood on the tee and was blown away with strategic options.

Chip,

Par 3's are the least strategic of the holes, and with the predominance of aerial play, there aren't many options to be contemplated.

However, the 6th at NGLA is unique in that you have a rare combination of an elevated tee to a green essentially surrounded by a bunker complex, with a huge green with accentuated contours segmenting the green into mini greens, with the wind as a huge factor.

Perhaps your analysis is based on limited play and therefore incomplete and/or flawed.


I loved both the Edens though, with TOC's being one of the best in the world.  Unfortunately I was taken hostage by that front right bunker at TOC and ruined an even par round. 

Once again, the wind can play a significant role in both the play and assessment of the holes.

I think the unfortunate by-product of modern day maintainance (speed) is the loss of a great number of great hole locations on Eden holes.

I would imagine, that with green speeds of 6-8, that Edens would come alive ... strategically, due to the diverse methods of play available, combined with the different direction and velocity of the winds that sweep those holes.


I personally love the Eden at Beechtree.  Penal penal front bunker and a very fun challenging green with death over the back.  I can't believe that hole is going away!

The Short at Old MacDonald looks like it redefines the Short hole for generations to come with its size, variety, and many many pin placements leading to many many four putts.

I'm anxious to see and play Old MacDonald, everything I've heard about it has been positive.



Tom Naccarato

Re: Eden versus Short
« Reply #32 on: November 24, 2008, 09:09:35 PM »
I'm very lucky to have played Eden and Short at both TOC and NGLA.  FWIW I preferred the Eden of TOC to NGLA.  TOC's Eden is absolutely terrifying in competition and one of the most difficult shots with any significant wind.  Into the wind its almost impossible to hit it hard enough to even get to the green and overclubbing and risking going long and having a downhill and downwind pitch can bring 5 or 6 into play. 

Downwind it is as precise a shot as you can imagine trying to just clear the front bunker while holding the green that despite its tremendous front to back pitch is very firm.  You seem to always end up above the hole and two putting almost always means holeing an eight to ten foot second putt.

NGLA's Eden is beautiful and I think MacDonald felt his forced carry over the small ponds was an improvement over TOC as TOC "allowed" a topped or running shot to escape any penalty.  Overall though, the original is far more terrifying and memorable.

However, give me NGLA's Short over TOC's Short any day.  #8 at TOC has never done anything for me.  I know the simplicity of the tiny front bunker and the enormous, seemingly impossible to miss green are supposed to sneak up on you but it just seems a bit bland to me :o  Maybe before yardages it was a sneaky little "fooler" hole but now it's just  a way to go from 7 to 9.

But, at NGLA the tiny, downhill Short is one of the coolest, most interesting greens I have ever seen.  Many greens within a large green that does a much better job of allowing one to get careless with such a short iron.  In this case, MacDonald vastly improved upon the original :D 

More proof that you and I think a lot alike.

Quote
Par 3's are the least strategic of the holes, and with the predominance of aerial play, there aren't many options to be contemplated.

Pat,
I agree with you to a certain degree, in fact I think this is a major problem with most modern part 3 holes--the lack of certain strategies--and the lack of ability to dictate those strategies to something else other then a carry nature. But to me that is the beauty of the "Short" hole. The carry over the moat is threatening to some; its deep and troublesome, but the contours on the green that go with it--well they are the strategies with-in--like the layers of an onion.

The "Short" hole at NGLA, (as well as the NLE Sandy Parlour) Riviera #4, (A modified Redan) the 5th at the Valley; as well as the original Eden itself, allowed me to further learn that strategies for one-shot holes should exist on the green, and that the parts of the holes can get you there--to the target--which in the case of a one-shot hole is the pin and the hole itself. Thus my one complaint--my one disagreement with Charlie--the 12th at NGLA.

I think half of the charm of the Eden hole is exactly as Chris Cupit has written it above. It's a devastatingly beautiful, threatening and deceptive golf hole that gets in your face and will kick you in the nuts if it is given the chance. The 12th at NGLA doesn't do that to you. Its a completely different golf hole. Don't get me wrong, I love it and the setting, but when it comes doesn't come close to the original. In fact, I think Garden City's 18th is a far better representation.

This all to me is what makes a GREAT one-shot hole.

Also, I think that when it comes to architecture that one-shot holes are the toughest which to design, because you have so much less which to use when it comes to ground for strategy. The strategies become condensed with-in the putting  surface itself.

jkinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eden versus Short
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2008, 12:05:43 PM »
Eden at NGLA has woods in its background (and on its left and right), which was always going to doom it by comparison, IMO, to the infinity backdrop of the Eden estuary at TOC. I've not yet seen a picture of the new Eden at Bandon, but I hope TD emulated the lack of backdrop at TOC.

Short at NGLA is the better of the duo. It is the elevated tee that makes it by showing in full frame the horrors that await a less than perfectly pured short iron.

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