Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)

[Jeff_Mingay]

Say you skip college and start shaping golf courses. Congrats, you will probably be spending the rest of your life building bunkers and shaping greens. I could not seriously recommend this to anyone.

Ryan,

I wouldn't talk ANYONE out of going to college. But, some people like building bunkers and shaping greens. They don't necessarily want to be the "big name" designer. Thank goodness for this, too, because there are some really talented shapers out there who I'm glad are content with their current role in golf architecture.

[Peter Pallotta]

"But, again, I think true greatness stems from inherent artistic talent."

Jeff - I think that's getting to the heart of your question (or at least to one aspect of it).  I tend to agree with you, but I've been told by working professionals in at couple of fields that this is an idealistic and romantic and naive view.  They're probably right -- but then again, no working professional I know really wants to talk or think too much about "inherent artistic talent"...it raises too many messy questions

And then, of course, it probably has something to do with what a would-be professional is really striving for, i.e. is it to be a good craftsman and make a decent living at something he likes doing? (which I think is an admirable and worthwhile goal and notable achievement) Or is it, like it probably was for FLW, to go further than that, and to manifest new ideas and bring genius into concrete form?

The latter is some pretty big fish to fry...and I guess in that attempt, very few rules or precedents apply

Peter

[Carl Rogers]

LeCorbusier, another self taught architect, said at the end of his life one should go to school.  He spent a lot of time trashing it.

In the world of building architecture, the licensing process (in the USA) starts at accreditted institution of higher learning of at least 5 years.  Then an internship with a documented amount of varied experience that takes a minimum of 3 years, then the licensing exam, which is 3 days or so.  Only 35% pass the exam the first time around.  

It takes some perserverance.

As to the thrust of this thread, I can not imagine the world of buildings requiring any less effort.  Way too much to experience, think about, assimilate and it never stops.

[Ian Andrew]

I received lots of resumes. I've always enjoyed encouraging people interested in architecture and taking the time to explain the alternatives and what it takes to break into the business. I"ll meet with anyone who asks and I usually hand out a copy of Tom's book to each one if they're just starting out. The last book I gave out was to a 13 year old girl interested in golf architecture which is really encouraging since we could use a better mix in this industry.

I’m honest and encouraging – but some people make me wonder.

Today I got a resume from a guy who is just finishing his degree in “political science.” He has worked full time for only one summer and part time in the summers previous in completely unrelated industries. His premise was that as a low handicap and having a position on the golf team, he was a natural to work with "my team" and suggested I forward the resume to my HR department.

Too funny.

[Matthew Hunt]

What would you say to someone like me who is looking towards a law or economics degree?

[Bob_Huntley]

Anyone that can come up with this, is my sort of chap.

Frank Lloyd Wright:

Early in life I had to choose between honest arrogance and hypocritical humility. I chose honest arrogance and have seen no occasion to change.


Bob

[Jeff_Mingay]

That is a legendary quote isn't it, Bob.

Great stuff 

[Tom_Doak]

Ian:

I suggest you modify your last post to disclude any reference to 13-year-old girls.  Liability issue!

[Matthew Mollica]

This is a really good thread, and many of the themes may be applied to so many fields of endeavour, as some posts highlight.

Jeff, it would be interesting to get an exact date at which the quote was made, as the cynical part of me suspects FLW offerred those words as a precursor to encouraging Goff to undertake the Fellowship programme at Taliesin, as opposed to college enrolment.

For those who don't know, FLW commenced a Fellowship programme (commenced 1932) at Taliesin (his summer home) in Spring Green, Wisconsin. There he educated eager young architectural minds and also used them as a source of labour to make alterations and improvements to the property. Students also grew crops for the group. I'm not sure if there was a fee for enrolment.

MM

[Jeff_Mingay]

Matthew,

I don't have a date to put to this quote, unfortunately. I do know that Goff was born in 1904 though... so, I'm guessing FLW's advice was given to him some time around tne mid 1920s, or perhaps a bit later.

FLW's Fellowship program is interesting. I'm sure he was genuinely interested in educating, but opportunity to use passionate, talented students to work on various projects was undoubtedly a bonus attraction to beginning this program.

[Bradley Anderson]

Anyone that can come up with this, is my sort of chap.

Frank Lloyd Wright:

Early in life I had to choose between honest arrogance and hypocritical humility. I chose honest arrogance and have seen no occasion to change.


Bob

I can't imagine how dysfunctional you would have be as a human being to actually think that way about yourself. He actually believed that he was so brilliant that humility would have been an act of dishonesty? I don't about you but I am offended by that kind of attitude in an artist.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Bradley,

Perhaps I'm being a bit naive, but I suspect FLW may have been a little sarcastic 

[Mike_Young]

Anyone that can come up with this, is my sort of chap.

Frank Lloyd Wright:

Early in life I had to choose between honest arrogance and hypocritical humility. I chose honest arrogance and have seen no occasion to change.


Bob

I can't imagine how dysfunctional you would have be as a human being to actually think that way about yourself. He actually believed that he was so brilliant that humility would have been an act of dishonesty? I don't about you but I am offended by that kind of attitude in an artist.

Bradley,
don't you see plenty of of supts with that attitude....or do you apply it other groups besides artist?

[Bradley Anderson]

Anyone that can come up with this, is my sort of chap.

Frank Lloyd Wright:

Early in life I had to choose between honest arrogance and hypocritical humility. I chose honest arrogance and have seen no occasion to change.


Bob

I can't imagine how dysfunctional you would have be as a human being to actually think that way about yourself. He actually believed that he was so brilliant that humility would have been an act of dishonesty? I don't about you but I am offended by that kind of attitude in an artist.

Bradley,
don't you see plenty of of supts with that attitude....or do you apply it other groups besides artist?

I have never met a superintendent who is not humble. Well actually there was one guy, but he was asked to leave his club, and that was sad because he was a very smart guy. But I don't think you could survive in this business without some degree of humility.

In the 1960's there was a movement among a group of superintendents to begin sharing their trade secrets, and that tradition is still a big part of how we grow in our abilities. The only difference today is we seem to be too busy to make it to monthly meetings like we used to.

But I would characterize superintendents as being a group of people who learn from each other, and who encourage one another. If you ever get the chance to hang with a group of superintendents, you'll never find better company.

[Tom_Doak]

"You'll never find better company" is certainly the height of humility.

[Bob_Huntley]

Anyone that can come up with this, is my sort of chap.

Frank Lloyd Wright:

Early in life I had to choose between honest arrogance and hypocritical humility. I chose honest arrogance and have seen no occasion to change.


Bob

I can't imagine how dysfunctional you would have be as a human being to actually think that way about yourself. He actually believed that he was so brilliant that humility would have been an act of dishonesty? I don't about you but I am offended by that kind of attitude in an artist.

Bradley,

Did you leave out a word in your ultimate paragraph?

Is it only when an artist opines thus that you are offended? What are your views on Picasso et al?

When Winston Churchill says the same sort of thing, "I am a great man" to his secretary,  does that appall you. I do feel that you should lighten  up, FLW was full of braggadacio much like sports figures are today.


Bob

[Garland Bayley]

I think avoiding college has nothing to do with keeping your individual creativity. It may have more to do with FLW working with college graduates and finding them lacking in creativity.

If a person has the requisite creativity, then it will persist through college, or as oft times happens, such people change colleges to find one that will not inhibit, but encourage their creativity.

If a person somehow looses their creativity in college, then I would suggest they did not have that much of a gift in the first place.

Of course college professors are incompetent. In every class they they teach there are students as talented, or more talented than them. Besides the people least able to recognize their incompentence are the incompetent themselves.

[John Kirk]

Frank Lloyd Wright was widely known as the Terrell Owens of architecture.

Whether arrogant or humble, you've got to be funny.

[Bradley Anderson]

"You'll never find better company" is certainly the height of humility.

You are right. But all I meant by that Tom was you wouldn't be in the midst of arrogance.

[Bradley Anderson]

Anyone that can come up with this, is my sort of chap.

Frank Lloyd Wright:

Early in life I had to choose between honest arrogance and hypocritical humility. I chose honest arrogance and have seen no occasion to change.


Bob

I can't imagine how dysfunctional you would have be as a human being to actually think that way about yourself. He actually believed that he was so brilliant that humility would have been an act of dishonesty? I don't about you but I am offended by that kind of attitude in an artist.

Bradley,

Did you leave out a word in your ultimate paragraph?

Is it only when an artist opines thus that you are offended? What are your views on Picasso et al?

When Winston Churchill says the same sort of thing, "I am a great man" to his secretary,  does that appall you. I do feel that you should lighten  up, FLW was full of braggadacio much like sports figures are today.


Bob

Bob,

You're right, I probably should lighten up. I happen to be a huge fan of Churchill and you are right, he was certainly capable of arrogance. There is a difference though. But I won't even go into that here.