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Jeff_Mingay

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Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« on: November 27, 2008, 08:43:09 AM »
I just read something quite interesting...

When starting out on his quest to become a building architect, Bruce Goff (1904-1982) received some advice from Frank Lloyd Wright and Louis Sullivan (Wright's mentor). Wright and Sullivan advised Goff to avoid college if he wished to keep his individual creativity.

Times change, of course. I couldn't imagine a contemporary architect providing such advice. Would any of the golf course designers who participate at this DG give a young student interested in persuing a career in golf architecture similar advice? (I doubt it.)

Just curious, 
jeffmingay.com

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2008, 08:48:21 AM »
Jeff,

That almost sounds like FLW thought the colleges were turning out mindless grads and forming their thoughts, i.e., he thought they were either pushing students to the military industrial establishment (or maybe being too liberal, since I don't know FLW politics off hand)

I didn't see a lot of mind control at the University of Illinois in the 1970's, but maybe they were just too effective for me to see it!  The landscape architecture department then occupied three old houses and we sort of kept to ourselves to avoid such things.

With no licensing requirements to be a golf course architect it would be easier to avoid college than it currrently would to avoid it if you were going into architecture or engineering.  I am not even sure you can take the licensing exam without a degree in architecture now.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

BCrosby

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Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2008, 09:08:53 AM »
I just read something quite interesting...

When starting out on his quest to become a building architect, Bruce Goff (1904-1982) received some advice from Frank Lloyd Wright and Louis Sullivan (Wright's mentor). Wright and Sullivan advised Goff to avoid college if he wished to keep his individual creativity.


Doesn't that depend a lot on the college? You might even turn FLW's advice upside down. I can just as easily imagine your creativity being stunted by not going to college. As long as you pick your college carefully.

Philippe Binette

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Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2008, 09:12:17 AM »
It all depends on the education system...

Remember that FLW first job in architecture was to sharpen pencils for the office (I doubt this job still exist).

At Montreal University, I would say that it was total freedom... actually pretty close to free for all. That leads to some creative but not very efficient students...

Give two hours to a LArch student from certain school, he'll come up with a nearly finished project
Give two hours to a LArch student from Montreal, he'll come up with an idea but no project.


It is to every student to develop a process, but good desing process relies on deep technical knowledge which in LArch, can only be learn by time on construction site.

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2008, 09:24:26 AM »
Jeff B. and Philippe make some good points... especially with regard to how university programs have changed since FLW's time.

I think Jeff B.'s probably right about not being able to take the licensing exam without an architecture degree, these days. I wonder what Lloyd Wright's opinions on modern-day licensing requirements for architects would be? He didn't have an architecture degree and went on to become one of the world's most revered, accomplished and influential architects.

Makes me think of guys like Pete Dye and Bill Coore (and Rod Whitman), for example. If there was a licensing requirement for golf architecture, these guys wouldn't be who they are today.
jeffmingay.com

Mike_Young

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Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2008, 09:29:21 AM »
Jeff,
I would say avoiding college today would be like avoiding highschool in FLW time.  So maybe we could compare avoiding a Masters program as having the same meaning for his time.... You think maybe?
But I think I understand what he is trying to say.....
Hey I spent a lot of time at college but I also avoided college.....I might go back when I am 65. ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ian Andrew

Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2008, 09:32:43 AM »
Jeff,

I always advise each person who writes or calls me that there are many alternate routes. It's up to the person to choose their route from construction experience, a turf background or computer savy. They must present something beyond design knowledge to find work with a firm since the competition is enormous.

Or they must be willing to work construction for a lot of years before getting their own opportunity and then be able to hustle their own work. There is no pattern to what works in this day and age.

Often it comes back to "what do you want to do if golf architecture doesn't work out."

Jeff B mentioned there is no licensing required to practice golf architecture. That is not actually correct in all States. To get licensed in most instances you need a University degree as a base requirement (not always but pretty much in today's day and age) to becoming a licensed Landscape Architect. Most choose to work under the mantle of a Civil Engineer which gets around the issue if they don't have a license themselves.

Back to Lloyd Wright - think back to they were teaching in University at that time - and that may help make more sense of the advice.

When I went to Guelph (second school for me) the professor teaching planting design taught only the "modern" California School of design. Work in clusters of plant material, etc. I came from a background involving perennials and was taught "gardening" which I still consider a higher art than Landscape Architecture.

Often you get taught to think too much inside the box for your own good. It's up to you to read and discover beyond the basics you are taught. You need to do the same in any office or construction team otherwise your limited by that collective knowledge.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 09:38:59 AM by Ian Andrew »

Tom Naccarato

Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2008, 09:38:08 AM »
Well then how come your not in California practicing your California School of Design? :D

Craig Sweet

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Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2008, 09:39:38 AM »
My experience has been that higher education is pretty formulated...regardless of program....MBA's from Wharton has a certain style, MFA's from Julliard have a certain style...etc. etc....

How do you avoid that?
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Ian Andrew

Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2008, 09:40:49 AM »
Tommy,

I have built an English style perennial garden at our house - you can never stray from your roots I guess. ;D

Ian

Ian Andrew

Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2008, 09:42:16 AM »
My experience has been that higher education is pretty formulated...regardless of program....MBA's from Wharton has a certain style, MFA's from Julliard have a certain style...etc. etc....

How do you avoid that?

I diasagree through my own experience.

I've graduated from different schools of Landscape Architecture. Both schools went about the design process and education completely different. You also have lots of opportunity to hoe your own road if you make the effoort to do so.

Look at Tom Doak and Gil Hanse using their opportunities to travel and work in the UK.

I interned with an LA office where I worked on urban squares and roof gardens. Excellent experience for grading and drainage, not so much for hole design.

Ian
« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 09:46:13 AM by Ian Andrew »

Mike_Young

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Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2008, 09:44:32 AM »
Ian,
I live in a block where we all share a common area as a back yard.....11 of my neighbors are imcompetent tenured professors.....problem is they don't know it..
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2008, 09:48:36 AM »
Craig,

LA programs probably aren't as structured as MBA's.  They are small departments with staff turnover.  I always felt that I happened to get a slice of perspective from a half dozen different professionals they happened to have their at the time.   As Ian notes, education comes through a selection of individual projects, which change each year, rather than a strict curricula, although there are base subjects.  I can still recall many of the college design projects I did.

As always, I could be wrong.

Mike Y,

Didn't you once tell me that being a college sophmore was the best three years of your life? ;)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ian Andrew

Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2008, 09:50:37 AM »
Ian,
I live in a block where we all share a common area as a back yard.....11 of my neighbors are imcompetent tenured professors.....problem is they don't know it..

They never do - do they.

I had a first year professor who taught illustration who could not draw. He would explain the theory but could not put any examples up for us without using slides. The people in our class who could draw would go around and show the technique the best we could to those who were confused.

I happened to love University - I was a teaching assistant at both schools - and was nearly talked into going on to pursue teaching. Then I would have been an incompetent professor.
 ;D

Craig Sweet

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Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2008, 09:57:08 AM »
Ian...sorry, but I guess I did not explain that well enough....

I agree with you....each school has THEIR way of teaching, and I think you can tell a Wharton grad from a Chicago Univ. grad...

Perhaps, by avoiding college, you avoid being pigeon holed as a disciple of a certain school....a certain formula for how something is done.
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Tom Naccarato

Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2008, 09:58:18 AM »
Did Alister MacKenzie, George Crump, Alan Wilson, C.B. MacDonald, Walter Travis, George C. Thomas, Billy Bell, and the list goes on ad infinitum go to design school? While I agree that school in every case would benefit to some degree, it is no different then going to a school where say....Well lets not use any particular architect from today as an example, that is unless they were a student of the sport that studied exactly what the greats did in fact study in probably the greatest classroom of them all, UGSA (The University of Golf, Old Course At St. Andrews...)

But I will admit that is dinosaur thinking.

The problem is that so much has changed in terms of laws and liability since FLW's time. Also the way things are constructed and affordability. Why he was a brilliant man when it came to architecture, but some of his practices became sort of bad in the terms of longevity. For example, in a great many of FLW's houses where he used his trademark tiles of different shapes and structures, the grout that he used for those tiles was carefully concocted out of sand that was existing on the site--allowing the color to match that of the surround nature. Unfortunately, some of those sands were not pure and good for grout. The problem today is that a great many  tiles are falling off of these magnificent buildings because of it. I could use Holly House here in LA as an example, where one day I was up there looking at this magnificent structure and literally could have walked of with four or five of the tiles that were laying in the planter that had fallen off. Pretty sad really.

If FLW had the use of computer analysis, I'm sure he would have been able to come up with a suitable grout that would match that color. The funny thing about it he could have probably got it at Home Depot.

Mike_Young

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Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2008, 10:18:08 AM »
Jeff,
It was 4 years.... ;D

Mr. Access whore TN :D,
His houses also leak..... :o
Think what the ODG's could have done with USGA construction and catch basins ;D ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2008, 10:29:19 AM »
Mike Young...FLW's buildings leaked?  Maybe he was ahead of his time ,and technology had not caught up with his designs?  Is that bad? 

I'm pretty sure you could replicate his designs today and make buildings that do not leak...
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Ian Andrew

Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2008, 10:32:46 AM »
Craig,

There was an article in Globe and Mail last week (our National newspaper) stating that half the condominiums in Vancouver have problems with leaks. This has been ongoing for 20 years now.

I guess some things never change...


Adam Clayman

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Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2008, 10:36:02 AM »
Putting the advice in historical context, perhaps practical experience was worth more than parchment??

FWIW, Wright's and Sullivan's association ended with FLW's rather unscrupulous practices.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2008, 10:41:48 AM »
Adam,

That's probably, at least in part, what FLW was getting at... his success stems from practical experience, and inherent genius. Kinda like Pete Dye, and a couple others, in golf architecture.
jeffmingay.com

Peter Pallotta

Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2008, 10:56:48 AM »
Jeff -

I've wondered about this, i.e. the process of an art/craft 'maturing' over time, its traditions and rules becoming established and/or codified.

Has American movie-making (and American films) gotten any better since the creation of films schools in the 1960s? Has the craft 'improved' from the days of Hawks and Ford and Capra and deMille? Has jazz 'improved' from the days of Armstrong and Young and Goodman and Parker and Gillespie, given the establishment of literally hundreds of jazz-music programs since the 1950s? Or is it that the general knowledge and understanding and practical know-how relating to these arts/crafts has stayed relatively the same, but just become much, much more wide-spread?

Talent, heart, ambition, taste, integrity, vision, and perserverance -- these can't be taught at school; though maybe connections, diplomas, and confidence can be acquired there.  I think the craft itself is probably best learned from working with those who have already mastered it (just like those greats I mentioned from others arts did) 

Peter
« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 11:13:37 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Tom_Doak

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Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2008, 11:13:55 AM »
Jeff:

I think you are confusing landscape architecture with golf course architecture.  Nobody really learns golf course architecture in college, they only learn a foundation for it.  My L.A. department at Cornell made no pretense that they were teaching me about golf course architecture -- they were teaching me about "design" and I had to figure out how to apply it.

By far the year where I learned most about golf course design was the year I spent overseas touring around the courses of Great Britain and Ireland when I was 21-22. 

I think I brought different things away from seeing those courses than most other modern designers, because I went earlier in my life than others, with less formal training for golf course architecture.  Sure, I'd read a lot about them -- you've got to do your homework -- but I was free to form my own opinions upon seeing them, and I didn't automatically reject the holes with blind shots or strange natural features because I didn't have somebody telling me to.  I had an open mind.  At some point once you start practicing, you make decisions about certain things and then you're not as open anymore.

Some college programs are better than others at encouraging their students to be open-minded.

Three of my associates went to school for something completely unrelated to golf course design, and one of the best of them only went to college for one semester before starting in golf construction.  I think all four of them missed something in not going to design school; but they spent that same four years learning to think in different ways, which gives them other strengths and makes them more valuable to our group.

Ryan Farrow

Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2008, 11:35:21 AM »
Ian, I like this:

"It's up to you to read and discover beyond the basics you are taught. You need to do the same in any office or construction team otherwise your limited by that collective knowledge."

Luckily I had a professor my junior year that really tried to push us in this direction. Its a big world out there and to limit yourself to golf course architecture knowledge or LA knowledge can really limit you thinking and/or creativity. More than anything college is about discovering yourself. You have 4 years to goof off, I only worked during my senior year, but the first 3 provided me with a ton of free time to really explore how i wanted to spend the rest of my life and to get started on that track.

Say you skip college and start shaping golf courses. Congrats, you will probably be spending the rest of your life building bunkers and shaping greens. I could not seriously recommend this to anyone.

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Radical advice from Lloyd Wright (?)
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2008, 11:41:07 AM »
Peter,

I'd have to really think about your questions to provide "intelligent" answers.

On your jazz note though, would Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, Thelonious Monk, et al have created their own revolutionary styles if they'd been "professionally schooled" in music as younger men? No one will ever know, I guess. But, as Tom Doak infers, they may have been "taught out" of being so revolutionary.

I'd add "passion" to your list of things that can't be taught in school (unless "passion" is what you mean by "heart")... passion for the art, and to succeed is essential. I believe this type of passion is entirely inherent, too. You're born with passion, or not.

I also think great artists are born with inherent talent. You can learn A LOT of valuable lessons in school, and through practical experience... as FLW did working with Louis Sullivan; or, Rod Whitman, Doak, and others did working with Pete Dye. But, again, I think true greatness stems from inherent artistic talent.
jeffmingay.com

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