[Scott Witter]

This topic is focused to the superintendents-but comments from all are always welcome.

Last spring I attended a seminar at Oak Hill CC where several speakers gave interesting talks on various subjects.  One of the more informative talks was given by Dr. Frank Rossi, (Cornell)which if you haven't heard Mr. Rossi speak, you have missed something, for while he may be one of the brightest people I know in the agronomic segment of the industry, he also has a talent, to make his talks entertaining as well

On this day, Mr Rossi presented research that was conducted at Crystal Downs on green speed.  The study looked at the affects of mowing and rolling in combination with respect to achieving less stress on the grass and to accomplish a sense of 'consistency'

The basis was to record the differences, if any, between mowing 6 days/wk and rolling 6 D/wk versus mowing 3 D/wk and rolling 6 D/wk.  When it was all said and done, they found that there was virtually no change in overall green speed and a level of consistency was achieved from week to week.  Lets not get into weather conditions, soil temps and other such matters for this info was not presented by Mr. Rossi, just presume that all things were equal.

What do you think and can this approach be effectively promoted throughout the industry?

[Greg Chambers]

Scott,

I attended his presentation last year on an organic approach to golf maintenance.  He included this information, as it was related to overall turf health.  He concluded you could mow and roll, as well as raise your height of cut for healthier turf, and not lose ball roll.  We switched to this program this past season, mowing 3 x per week and rolling on the off days, with Mondays doing nothing at all.  It worked great.  We raised our height of cut, the greens were healthy, and the ball roll was extremely consistant, day in and day out. 

[Scott Witter]

Greg:

Glad to hear your story, I hope there are more like it out there.  Curious, were you the one who 'sold' it to the members/board and if so, how did you do so and what were some of the reactions?

To me the consistency goal is more important than speed and with this approach it appears to give the bonus of healthier turf...a definite plus

[Ian Larson]

I tried this for a couple months a couple years ago during the summer months when growing conditions were optimal. I noticed that on the days we only rolled the poa greens were bumpy and more inconsistent for the late afternoon twilight golfers. After an entire days worth of sunlight and growing the blades of grass that were layed over by the roller would stand up, having not been mowed for two days the grass blades were inconsistent in length across the green.

I monitored the growth four times a day using a prism gauge. Its a great concept and I know its successful elsewhere. I think it would be most successful on pure bent greens, rather than a poa mix.

[Greg Chambers]

Scott,

I didn't have to sell anything, I just implemented the program.

Ian,

Were you using any PGR's along with the mow/roll?  We are still mostly bent, so mine is a different situation from yours.

[Ian Larson]

Greg,

Yes we were on a bi-weekly foliar and soils program with Primo going into every foliar tank at 1/8 ounce, sometimes more. We literally tried to shut down the plant. But even with that you have the different poa strains within a green shutting down more and less than others. And we didnt sell anything either, we just did it and waited for compliments / complaints. For poa greens I think this is perfect for golf courses in northern climates that get freezing temps in the fall, winter and spring. And thats probably where Rossi conducted the trials. In fact wasnt it at Crystal Downs with Nicholi?

[Don_Mahaffey]

I think the study just confirmed what many supts have been doing for years. As Ian noted, it's not one size fits all and you do have to taylor your program to your grass and expectations. But, it's been known for years that regular rolling allows you to mow a little less often, grow a little more leaf, and still achieve desired ball roll.

I seriously doubt you'll find many supts that don't roll their greens. Some a little more than others, and probably a few that still don't do it because they fear compaction, but most have some sort of rolling program.   

[TEPaul]

In my opinion, a thread like this one is the kind of topic this website really needs to have a whole lot more of if it wants to get back on the informational and respected track it once plied and enjoyed some years ago!

[Joe Bausch]

In my opinion, a thread like this one is the kind of topic this website really needs to have a whole lot more of if it wants to get back on the informational and respected track it once plied and enjoyed some years ago!

Amen Tom.  This thread has been a real eye-opener for me.

[Chris Tritabaugh]

Thom Nikolai (SP) from Michigan St. did the research on this with the Superintendent from Crystal Downs. His name is escaping me. We went with a modified version of their practice this season. I also did not feel the need to sell the program to the membership, we just did it. When it comes to height of cut, mowing and rolling frequency I think the less the membership knows the better. Don't get me wrong I am all for communication but when the average member knows the greens were only rolled they will immediately feel the greens are poor. Even if the stimpmeter and my own observations tell me otherwise. If the greens are true and consistent what difference does it make how high and how often they are being mowed. I could go on and on about the advantages of raising height of cut but its my bed time.

[Tom Jefferson]

All the greens at Bandon Dunes are, during the growing season, on a every other day mow and roll schedule, year in and year out.
We feel, and the results support it, that it is the best way to achieve both healthy fescue turf and consistent playing conditions, with ball roll between 9 and 10.5 ft.
Our height of cut is .210, +/-. 
Only walkers, no triplex use, rare use of groomers.
No PGRs, very low fertility and minimal irrigation.

Old fashioned, simple stuff.

Tom Jefferson, CGCS
Bandon Dunes Golf Resort

[Eric_Terhorst]

Superintendents,

thanks for this thread.  When we were at Lawsonia in October, we saw the crew rolling the greens on a Sunday morning.  These posts make me wonder if they were implementing a similar program.  The greens were rolling great, fast and true.

Tom Jefferson, for us who just want to impress our friends with our vast knowledge next time we're at Bandon, can you please clarify--is that mow one day, roll the next,  or mow and roll both on every other day? 

Thanks!

[Tom Jefferson]

Eric........
That is roll one day, and mow the next.

Thanks,
Tom

[Tom Naccarato]

Tom Paul, I couldn't agree more....

Outstanding thread.

[Jon Wiggett]

Tom Jefferson,

I don't have groomers fitted to any of my machines as they do more damage to fescue than good. At my last fescue course, I mowed alternate days and vibra-rolled on the others. I fine topdressed every monday  the weather allowed (which is almost every) cutting on wed, fri & sun. I had a HOC of 6mm (about a 1/4" I think) and was stimping at 9.5 feet.

I only ever hand cut greens and didn't hollowtine but did startine or spike once a week. Greens and surrounds all treated the same.

[Andrew Hastie]

This is indeed a very interesting post.

So if I understand this correctly, this is a fantastic method for pure Fescue greens. But the more Poa in the greens the less effective this method would be!
Here in The Netherlands the Green keepers never roll Greens except with a important upcoming event. 
This is for fear of compaction.
How much extra aeration is needed to compensate for the  compaction caused by the frequent rolling?

[Kyle Harris]

I'll be the nerd.

What kind of rollers? Power, the ones on the triplex, the large cast-iron hand rollers?

[Steve Okula]

I'm managing 36 holes of Poa/bent mix. During the growing season, we alternate mowing (.120 inch)and rolling from day to day. The rollers are lighweight, vibrating mounted on a triplex.

With a regular Primo growth regulator program, there are almost no clippings, even only mowing very second day. The green speeds regularly run an average of 11+ feet. At times, we hold off the roller because the speeds are just getting too quick.

I started the more regular rolling without mowing on certain days a couple of years ago. At first, there was resistance from the membership. As stated above, the common perception is that if the greens are not mowed that day, they can't roll well.

The big difference is the growth regulators available today that we didn't have 10-15 years ago. PGR's have changed the whole game.

My greens do not grow significantly during the day. I kept careful records, stimping the same points in the same greens once in the morning right after mowing, again in early afternoon, and finally in the evening. The fastest speeds were usually the afternoon.

[Bradley Anderson]

Crystal Downs is not in what I would call an average location or situation.

I think those greens have some pretty good slope to them, and speed is probably not as important to the defense of par as it might be at clubs with much flatter greens.

They could also skip mowing and not have the same kind of growth on the odd days as a club that is 200 miles south, or at a club that does not benefit from the kind of temperate climate that one enjoys from being a stones throw down-wind from a Great Lake.

At some clubs where there are more rounds on smaller greens, or higher percentage Poa annua greens, there may need to be more fertilizer applied in the course of a year, and on those greens there may need to be daily mowing, regardless of rolling.

I think the research at Crystal Downs is valuable, and I don't mean to disparage it in any way, but lets be careful about comparing what they have been able to do there with what you may be able to do at your own club. At your club you may need to double-cut and roll every day of the week, to keep a satisfied membership. I actually know of guys with flat who have to do that, and they are good superintendents who know their stuff. Or you may be able to mow every day and roll every other day. Every club is going to be different.

[Scott Witter]

Bradley:

I don't think this research was meant to be applied as a blanket to all--I give the superintendents much more credit that that and presume they modify the program to assist with their ultimate goal.  There is no question that this approach must be balanced with the grass varieties, weather, soils and other such cultural practices the supers have in their bag of tricks such as PGR's and light topdressing apps.

I really like that fact that supers are not finding themselves in a selling position and simply having at it.  I als agree completely that the less info to members the better.

Tom P,  IMO, we need more superintendent participation in this DG as I believe their skills and knowledge will become even more upfront/close and personal with the woes in the economy and in order for facilities of all kinds to survive and be successful.

"If the greens are true and consistent what difference does it make how high and how often they are being mowed."

Chris, this is exactly the key point and the bonus is a healthier plant as well that can be managed much better with less stress.

Tom J:

As it has been said, and I would tend to agree, I think this program would have more effective results on a higher stand of bent, or in your case fescue and bent.  I would think that fescue would respond even better than bent given the leaf texture and growth characteristics.

Andrew H:  It would seem, practically speaking, that the soils wouldn't be all that different for compaction in the Netherlands to become an issue, nor do I think the supers in the US do aerification to counter the rolling.  Hopefully some of the supers who have posted can comment further on this.

Hey guys...this thread is just what I was hoping for and it has inspired me to actually get some work done today, besides making dressing and apple pies with my wife

[Chris Tritabaugh]

I also agree that the work at Crystal Downs cannot be duplicated like for like just any course. It has to be specific to the site. And is more of a guide line than anything else. For us the Crystal Downs model can be copied. We have smallish, severe greens in which 10+ is probably too fast. And we are a stones throw from a Great Lake. Our warmest day this summer was 85 degrees on Labor Day. There are a lot of things we are able to do on our location that would not be possible even in the Twin Cities or even on the Brauer trail NW of us.

[Steve Okula]

Various researchers, from Penn State University, the U.S.G.A. Greens Section, and Thomas Nikolai, have shown that light rolling up to four times per week does not significantly contribute to compaction,  least of all on sand-based greens. It might cause a problem if overdone on wet clay or something, but normally it doesn't matter.

[Greg Chambers]

We don't have any compaction related to the frequent rolling, on sand-based greens.  Also keep in mind that our goal with this practice is not to speed the greens up, but to maintain a consistant ball roll, while also increasing overall turf health.  In the past, in order to maintain consistant ball roll, we were mowing 7 days a week, at a height of .105".  Now we mow 3 days a week at a height of .130" and the rolling every other day helps maintain the consistency.  This practice also reduces labor requirements dramatically, helping to save the club some $$$.

[Jon Wiggett]

This is indeed a very interesting post.

So if I understand this correctly, this is a fantastic method for pure Fescue greens. But the more Poa in the greens the less effective this method would be!
Here in The Netherlands the Green keepers never roll Greens except with a important upcoming event. 
This is for fear of compaction.
How much extra aeration is needed to compensate for the  compaction caused by the frequent rolling?

Andrew,

I use virba. rollers on a triplex machine. Using the correct program compaction is not an issue. Programs to combat compaction vary a lot from course to course. I prefer an on going program of frequent top dressing combined with spiking, star slitting and micro tining as it doesn't disturb the surface very much.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Scott,
Last year I went up to NY to hear Tony Pioppi and Brad Klein speak, and say hi to Steve Curry. The bonus was hearing Dr. Rossi give this same (or   similar) presentation to the audience of Superintendents.

I'm not a super, but it was an interesting talk. One thing that stood out, and I must say was news to me, was that the Dr. found that double cutting produced no appreciable gain in green speed.

You learn something new every day.

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