Miracle on Breeze Hill

[George Pazin]

Patrick -

My confusion regarding the routing stems from comments made by Mr. Schulman in the book.

Route Plan M, the final plan that was approved by all of the regulators and the plan on which a building permit was issued, is our golf course today in terms of the holes and their placement. The sequence of play is another thing, as this has been a matter of considerable evolution at Atlantic over the years. (p.147)

and

True, we had our returning nines and our lunching facility and our bathrooms, but we also had unbalanced nines, five hour rounds and lots of confusion for visiting players. The biggest problem was long criss-crossing walks, such as the hikes from (current) holes number 8 to 6, 7 to 10, 17 to 4 and 5 to 9.(p. 148 )

I was simply wondering whether this affected the decision by golfers to ride or walk. If it's mostly walking on the course, then to me this is a minor problem.

As far as the circular bunker comment goes, I was looking at the photos inside of the foldout; most of the photos portray a course that looks very natural, yet there is one circular bunker that looks kind of out of place. I fully realize this is an aesthetics question - the important thing is how it plays & how it influences play, though it does look kind of shallow as well. I don't really care if other architects use circular bunkers or not, I just think that one looks odd to me. One thing I did notice, watching the Walker Cup last year on the tube, was that some of the features on golf courses that  are criticized as artificial looking when viewed from above, looked far better when viewed from the perspective of the golfer. Hopefully that is the case here as well.

I look forward to reading the comments on the course from the other panelists.

As far as your question of would they do it again, my guess is they would - Mr. Schulman seemed thrilled with the outcome, so I figure he thinks it was worth it. As for me, if I had Tom Julius' job, I would soon end up 1) tending bar down in the Bahamas or 2) swinging from the rafters.

[Three_Putt]

I have a slightly different feeling on Atlantic and some of the questions raised in this thread.  I have played the course countless times and I do believe there is some truth to the concerns raised about the routing.  Since 1992, the routing has been changed 4 times (by my count) and a number of other alternatives have been also been considered.

What really throws things off is that the 2nd half of #13 plays behind the clubhouse and, therefore, necessitates a walk through the parking lot to reach #14 tee (as 95% of the golf course plays on the other side of the clubhouse).  To confuse matters more, when Rees designed the course, #14 was initially the starting hole.  However, as #15 is a par 3, the concern was that the combination of #14 and #15 would make for a slow start to the day.

In my opinion, much of Atlantic is unnatural (and I am not simply talking about the architecture).  When the club opened, there was no putting green up by #1 tee so we walked from the range (which is very small) to the putting green (by #14) and then back up the hill to #1 (which you can not see from the range) to tee off (some 300 yards covered back and forth before teeing off).

Additionally, walks from #16 to #17 (150 yards backwards) and from #13 to #14 (more than 300 yards) just distract from the momentum of the round.  As an aside, one of the reasons that the grounds crew continues to cut back the fescue and the blue grass each year is becuase the membership is obsessed with speed of play (not a bad thing).  However, it is my opinion that the walks between holes more than the tall grasses is the main reason why play is so slow - that and a relatively new bunch of golfers in the membership.

Also, and this may not be the appropriate forum for these comments, Rees' attempts to get Atlantic back in the top-100 are quite well known.  In all honesty, the recent work on the golf course (making the tees square and changes to some green complexes) strikes me as a good improvement. However, the golf course itself is very repetitive and (in my opinion) is just not that strong a design.  To me, the holes are not memorable (in any order) and resemble one another quite a bit -- containment mounding, big bunkers (often poorly or predictably placed) and relatively uninspiring green sites.

What I think would be suspect, and what gives me pause, is that Rees can invite these panelists to see the "revised" golf course and then Atlantic finds its way back on to the list of the top-100 because of some rather simple cosmetic changes.

Anyway, just one guys view!  I think the true miracle on breeze hill is that Lowell and others created a marvelous place for people to come together and play golf where that alternative was not available to them before (for reasons that we would all find offensive)...

[J_Olsen]

Three putt, that is an extremely cogent analysis of Atlantic. It is extremely repetitive and unnatural. And your comment at the end is also right on the money. Hard to believe that in this day and age, people still have trouble finding heterogeneous golf clubs.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Three Putt,

I liked the start on the Current # 14, finishing on the current
# 13.  It also eliminated the walk between the holes.

There is a practice putting green right next to the current # 1 tee.   Since the large putting green is right next to the range,
I never thought it was a terrible inconvenience.  Hit balls, putt a few, walk to the first tee.  Certainly the walk from
NGLA's range to the first tee is about twenty times or more than Atlantic's, yet you never hear complaints about the small range, the range's distance and walk from the range to the first tee at NGLA.  
NGLA's putting green, with three or four cups may be one of the smallest anywhere, yet noone complains.
I guess one's outlook is borne of a having a negative or positive perspective.

Initially, the rough was so thick at Atlantic that finding your ball was a miracle, and time consuming.  If you found it, getting it out without breaking your wrists was an accomplishment.  I always felt the rough needed to be seriously thinned.

I don't think the current routing contributes substantively to slow play.  I think the rough, combined with the extra firm and fast greens, and the general level of golf combine to slow things down.

I don't think the holes resemble one another any more than  any architects holes bear relevance to his style, and think there are a number of memorable holes.

As to bunker placement, or your contention that the bunkers are not properly placed, I'm reminded of Donald Ross's opinion on the placement of bunkers, that no bunker is out of place.

If  Atlantic returns to the top 100, surely you can't blame Rees or Lowell, they have no vote, and can't be faulted for wanting Atlantic recognized.
If the club returns to the top 100 it will be because the rater/s have played the golf course and rendered their opinions
I would agree with you in not favoring a formalized outing.

Irrespective of your views, my views, or anyone's views on Atlantic, the book "Miracle on Breeze Hill" is excellent reading, highly informative, and enlightening, and I recommend it for all those interested in golf course architecture.  Proceeds from the book go to the Westchester Caddy Scholarship fund too.

[Three_Putt]

Patrick,
Well said.  I own a few copies myself and would fault neither Rees nor Lowell if the course returns to the top-100.  I just object to all the politics that are taking place.  Between you, me and the lampost, I think Friar's Head will be the place to play out there.  I'm not sure that I've walked a better golf course (just there last weekend).  Wow!

All the best.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Three putt,

There is a certain uneasiness that I feel regarding structure. It undermines the process, by failing to keep things at an arms length, due to the role of the participants, active and supportive.

As a golfer, Friar's Head would seem to contain all of the elements that would attract me.  Golf course, practice facility, par 3 course, setting, a fairly confident view that things will be run right, and THE WIND.  It's a pretty strong combination, if you're a golfer, and even if you're not.

[J_Olsen]

The club is predominantly Jewish. Shinnecock, National and Maidstone have relatively few Jewish members and were essentially unavailable to the very well established and successful founders of Atlantic because of their religion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

If you see it that way, then you have an obligation to take it up with J Olsen, who raised the issue.

I'm sure you're amply qualified to take up the Bob'O'Link issue.

Your girth, residence and christian backround won't impede your cause.

[J_Olsen]

Anyway, just one guys view!  I think the true miracle on breeze hill is that Lowell and others created a marvelous place for people to come together and play golf where that alternative was not available to them before (for reasons that we would all find offensive)...

Anyway, to deny that this is so would be somewhat naive. There are no hard and fast rules out there, but at the same time, most northeastern clubs are defined by ethnic background. These people HAD to build Atlantic, because no matter how good they were at golf, or business, or life, they weren't getting in to the big 3.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Redanman,

I enjoyed "Driving the Green".  
I think the perspective is different in that the story is told by a writer, with an overview, not an active participant.

I think one of the unique things about "Miracle on Breeze Hill"
is that Lowell Schulman tells his story, as an overview, then each of the key players, save one, tells their story, from their perspective.

I think the two books compliment one another, and I would encourage all to read both.

My hope would be that Mike Keiser, Ken Bakst and others would memorialize their experiences/projects/courses with a book.  Including lots of pictures  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I found the book a very informative read although the first 3-4 chapters were pretty mooshy stuff coming from the club's founder. Other then the opening chapter how he found the property, it really took of for me as soon as he started talking about Chase-Manhatten Bank. Here all of the ego-driven/pat-myself-on-the-back, developer stuff came to a halt and the reader really gets to see just how complicated the whole development process really gets from every issue of golf couse design and construction.

Tom Julius' efforts alone deserve a medal for bravery in the line of duty.

(I actually found myself rooting for Rees in all of this, hoping that he would get some sort of break after all of the environmental issues that would seem to produce a multitude of design changes. No doubt they would eventually affect the finished product to force the seemingly confusing and clumsy routings.)(Mind you that I have never been to Atlantic, but have looked at several aerials and have talked with several people about the course that do know and understand it.)

Brad Klein has done a remarkable job, once again, adding his deft touch.

The only thing missing was an actual aerial drawing or photo of the entire layout, which would have made it even more understandable of the plight of what it takes to get a golf course designed in this day as well as put up with the bastions (W.C. Field's word for bastards) who make it their life's mission to thwart the design and play of fields of green grass, on parcels of land that had much more serious  environmental issues when they farms.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

When you think of all the events that happened by chance, including Tom Julius, the title has special relevance, and it right on the mark.

Again, it would be great if Mike Keiser or Ken Bakst wrote a book based on their experiences.

[George Pazin]

Far be it for me to inject some rational thought into the club exclusivity issue, I will nonetheless try.

This type of change takes decades or generations - sometimes it's near impossible. And this has little to do with attitudes, prevailing or not.

Consider the following. These clubs are presumably at or near capacity. Again presumably, not a whole lot of members are going to resign, ever. Another assumption: they are going to have offspring. The few members of clubs that I know either became members through their parents or married into a family who was already a member.

Therefore, how quickly can one reasonably expect change to occur? Does anyone seiously expect members to resign to open up membership opportunities for minorities? If I were a member of these clubs, I would take my membership to the grave with me. Furthermore, if I were forced to relocate for some reason & couldn't maintain my membership, I probably still wouldn't give it up out of spite alone - I wouldn't want some outside "authority" telling me or fellow members what to do.

Hence, change occurs very slowly.

Again, I applaud Mr. Schulman & the other founders for taking the initiative &, in my mind, the reasonable approach.

Shinnecock must have satisfied the USGA for it to remain an Open site.

I'll second the call for books from Mike Keiser & Ken Bakst, but the book I'm really looking forward to is Tom Doak's Pacific Dunes book. Course construction insight at its finest (I anticipate).

[George Pazin]

JakaB -

Flippant posts like your last one do far more to fan the flames.

Not once in the book do I recall Mr. Schulman mentioning the issue. If someone hadn't posted it on this thread, I wouldn't have known it was even an issue. Mr. Schulman mentions in his book simply that there wasn't sufficient supply for the demand in the area.

Glad to see you didn't even consider the mechanism I suggested. I guess knee jerk reactions characterise the thought process of most these days.

[Brad Klein]

George, the overwhelming majority of rounds at Atlantic GC are walking, accompanied by caddie - or (I think) carry your own).

Given how the holes sit, there are several different ways to play 18 there, so that there are different sequences possible. The current 1st and 14th start by the clubhouse, and there are various permutations available. The used to have both nines returning, but in order to get back at the 9th green you had to do some awkward long walks behind greens and tees on the dfar end of the course, so it took about 1,000 yards more and 20 minutes time as well. At no point does one ever have to cross holes, however.

They basically had a choice - returning nines, or a shorter overall walk. They finally chose the later, severeal years after the opening.

There is no rule of thumb on moving earth. Sand Hills moved 5,000 cubic yards. Atlantic about 375,000 cubic yards. Shadow Creek about 2 million. Whistling Straits about 4 million. I would estimate that 60 percent of all courses are in the range of 250,000-600,000 cubic yards. Its costs about $1.25-$2 per cubic yard to move earth, so costs go up considerably (though there are many other factors that go into construction costs as well.)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad Klein,

I overlooked, and should have given you recognition for the pivotal role you played in getting the book to press in its final form.

Your contribution together with those from the "cast of characters" made this a fabulous read for me, a book that I would recommend to all.

[George Pazin]

Brad -

Thanks for the info.

Given that the course is located in a "resort" area, whether its for a weekend or however long, I would think that the majority of play would be 18 & therefore they made the right decision.

Patrick -

Thanks again for the heads up on the book- it was definitely an interesting & informative read. Can't wait to hear comments from those playing the course.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

Thanks for an enjoyable read and an educational one, as well.

I would second many of the comments above re: the efforts of Tom Julius, as well as the optimistic spirit of Mr. Schulman to realize his dream of building a fine new course and club that could stand proudly in that competitive neighborhood.

Having never played Atlantic, I'm curious if the excessive local wetland restrictions might have inevitably become a blessing in disguise.  Certainly the linksland theme of the course seems more authentic without a lot of holes skirting ponds and wetlands on the face of it.  

As someone familiar with the property pre and post construction, would you agree with that statement?  Or, do you think that there were some great holes that could have been built on the property that had to be abandoned due to those restrictions?

Thanks again, Patrick!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

I think anytime that you have substantive restrictions put on the use of a property, it has to have a negative impact on the ability to design what you want, or your ideal design.

Maybe luck of the draw would produce a very good product, but I'd rather have an unimpeded site, over a restricted one.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

I understand your logical point, and on the face of it, it seems obvious that the more unrestricted land that could be used to build the golf course, the better the possible result.

However, I wonder if sometimes the obvious is not always the best.  In the case of Atlantic, it seems that perhaps Rees and Greg Muirhead had to dig a bit deeper into their design skills (or so it seemed from the book) to come up with a workable design that stayed far away from those obvious water holes.  

Would you say that the result might have been better if those water holes could have been included, or conversely, perhaps the additional restrictions and creative efforts they necessitated actually worked to their advantage, particularly given the "links" theme of the course?

In either case, it was great to read about a project from beginning to completion, and the team effort to overcome the many obstacles was certainly inspirational.

[GeoffreyC]

I just returned from a wonderful day at Atlantic golf club.  I must say that it is a much better golf course then I expected. With the current routing of the course, there is no repetitive theme to the course (a criticism I had heard in the past) and the internal views on the course are quite beautiful.   In addition, Mr. Schulman is one of the most gracious individuals I have ever met and his goal at Atlantic is clearly to provide the best golf course and the best golf experience possible for his members and guests. Kudos to everone at Atlantic Golf Club!

After reading the book and seeing the results, it really was a miracle.

[Mike_Cirba]

Geoffey,

Atlantic is one of those highly-rated courses where no one tends to mention particular holes in describing it.  Could you describe for us your favorite par 3, 4, and 5, and what makes each special?

p.s...glad to hear you had an enjoyable day.  I was very jealous sitting in the office, I assure you!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

I think the 13th hole could have been a better hole had they been allowed to put the green near/behind/to the side of the pond.

I'm not sure that water would have come into play anywhere else.

Geoffrey C,

How was the speed of the greens and the wind ?

[GeoffreyC]

Pat - the greens were very quick but there was just a wee breeze out there (not more then 1 club).

Mike-  I really didn't feel that there were weak holes on the golf course.

I think the 18th is a fine finishing 3 shot par 5.  The drive (into the wind) requires a good carry and the layup is not an easy one to give a good angle into the days pin location.  The opening hole is also an excellent 5 par with more risk reward options.

There are several good par 4's to choose from.  If you want hard, just tee it up on #10.  Its a Matt Ward special   .  If you want short yet challenging and fun with a great angle off the tee ball, #12 is a good choice.  

The 3 pars give you a choice as well.  #11 at 128 yards has an nice skylight green with a look of terror if you miss (I did). #4 (217 or 199 yards) could have been a really good reverse redan but its still a nice hole with choice of how bold you want to play the tee shot into the front left to back right angled green.

Mike- go out and play Atlantic and see what you think.  After playing Olde Kinderhook with you I think you will like this one too!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Geoffrey C,

Are you implying that playing the course might positively impact one's view of Atlantic, and Rees ?  Interesting theory.

A one club breeze is nice, two club's challenging, three club's
overwhelming.