News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
It amazes me how often an architect will state proudly that the Par 3s at so and so course all play in different directions.  Or how often having par 3s playing in the same direction is seen as an architectural weakness

Some people seem to think it is important/clever.  I don't quite get it.

To me it is probably one of the last things I notice about a course and is more a nice piece of trivia.

If you are playing on a course with little wind, it does not seem to matter.  If you are playing on a course with a lot of wind it can sometimes even out the hole lengths.

I think that it is imortant that the player experiences the wind at different orientations throughout his round but I have never understood why the par 3s would be such an important subset of this. 

To me it is more important that holes of similar type are balanced, eg. it is nice if there are two short par 4s that one is downwind and one is into the the wind so that there are a variety of strategies in the round.  That way one can have a drive and pitch strategy and one can be drivable.   

But par 3s have little strategy.  If they are a variety of lengths then that provides variety and if all the holes on the course are varied in direction then the player faces a variety of wind orientations on his iron shots throughout the round as a whole. 

It wouldn't factor into my enjoyment or ranking of a course unless it was an extreme example.  Ayone agree or disagree?  How important is par 3 orientation to you?  Do you notice it when you are playing?
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Over-rated Architectural Features - Par 3s in different directions
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2008, 08:47:20 AM »
David,

What is your handicap?  Some enjoy golf for the camraderie and some for competition.  I think the all points of the compass on the par 3 (and par 5) idea comes from tour pros in design.  I guess they notice such things more than us average golfers.

I don't know if it makes it right.  When I am designing, I try for that, but I don't obsess over it.  I figure, all things being equal, over time, playing similar type holes in different winds will make a cousre more interesting.  As for one playing, I can agree with you.

I guess the key phrase is "all things being equal" I would rather have the 3's go different directions.  Of course, things aren't always equal.  And, I try for concept shots on par threess - precision, redan, etc. so shot type is as important as wind direction.  Wind direction would be more important if all par 3's were of the "straightforward" variety with bunkers all around, etc. 

But the same hole in different winds isn't as good a design as different holes in the same winds!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

Re: Over-rated Architectural Features - Par 3s in different directions
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2008, 08:52:03 AM »
My only problem with par three tees in different directions is that most guys who set out tee markers do not take into account the wind and we end up hitting the same club despite different distances.  It is not uncommon at all to hit the same club from 190 as 170 when faced with a one club wind.  But really, how much thought can a guy expect out of a staff day after day?

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Over-rated Architectural Features - Par 3s in different directions
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2008, 08:53:56 AM »
I think there is much to be said for short holes which play in different directions. On a links course, for instance, you may well have to make a bump-and-run approach downwind and a full hit into the wind (with perhaps an allowance of two clubs' difference from clubbing the same holes on a windless day).

There is another factor about short holes which is relevant to a lot of British courses. On which hole numbers do the short holes occur? It is relevant to foursomes play. At my home club, Wilmslow, in a mixed foursome the ladies always elect to drive at the 1st hole because it means they are saved from the difficult tee shot, all carry across a valley to the par-3 14th. The other short holes are the 6th, 9th and 17th, so they will get the tee shot at two of the short holes, 9th and 17th, neither of which is an easy shot for a lady golfer.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Over-rated Architectural Features - Par 3s in different directions
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2008, 09:01:43 AM »
JK and Mark,

Both good points. I recall reading the GA classics and the gca's calling for co-ordination of tee placements based on weather.  However, I have been in the biz since 1977 and it's very rare these days. I am not sure it was ever accomplished.  And, the firm conditions that require a run up shot are gone in the USA.  its the same shot with a different club.

In my new designs, I counter that by total distance separation.  I used to build par 3's at back tee yardages with 20-25 yard splits.  Now, I go more like 150-190-230-270 for variety.  I really like the shortest and longest to be on the same nine, figuring no golfer will have trouble remembering the difference between the two if closely spaced.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Over-rated Architectural Features - Par 3s in different directions
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2008, 09:17:28 AM »
I just make the par 3 holes fit the best and most interesting land as my main priority, my next consideration is not having one too early in a round.... however of my courses the results are first par 3:
2nd Erlestoke, 4th Forest Hills, 4th St Cleres, 4th Dainton, 2nd Kendleshire, 3rd Cumberwell R&Y 2nd Cumberwell O&B, 2nd Players Club, 1st Stranahan, 4th Oake Manor ...
So I guess with my second consideration I have not fared so well ...
« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 10:22:38 AM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Over-rated Architectural Features - Par 3s in different directions
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2008, 09:30:56 AM »
I do think it plays a part David, especially when those hole lengths are roughly the same...

I'll give you one example... County Louth (Baltray) is often cited as having a great collection of par-3's... Out of the four par-3's on offer, the majority consensus is that 5 and 15 are the best two (although I have an extreme love of 7)... For me, what lets me down about 15 is that I've just played exactly the same club with exactly the same strategy from the same distance in the same wind as I did at No.5... It feels like the same shot.... The hole itself is great but this takes the edge off just a touch...

(note I have not once in 4 rounds played a different club at these 2 holes)...

So it may not be the main priority but it is certainly still a consideration...

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Over-rated Architectural Features - Par 3s in different directions
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2008, 06:54:00 PM »
David,

What is your handicap?  Some enjoy golf for the camraderie and some for competition.  I think the all points of the compass on the par 3 (and par 5) idea comes from tour pros in design.  I guess they notice such things more than us average golfers.

I have been high single figures to mid teens and havent played a heap of competitive golf, that is a good point.  I also haven't tended to play alot of course lately with a lot of crosswind holes which definetly put a premium on the shot shaping ability of the top golfers in competition. 

BTW, I like the sound of your distances on par 3s. 

Mark,

Good point about bouncing the ball in downwind on a links course. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Mark_F

Re: Over-rated Architectural Features - Par 3s in different directions
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2008, 04:28:18 AM »

But par 3s have little strategy. 

Why not?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Over-rated Architectural Features - Par 3s in different directions
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2008, 07:43:53 AM »
In an ideal world, yes, striking out in different directions for par 3s is a bonus.  However, it is far more important to me to create different shots for par 3s regardless of wind. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Over-rated Architectural Features - Par 3s in different directions
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2008, 08:44:30 AM »
In an ideal world, yes, striking out in different directions for par 3s is a bonus.  However, it is far more important to me to create different shots for par 3s regardless of wind. 

Ciao

Sean, the word "bonus" perfectly encapsulates my thinking on the matter, better than my phrase "all things being equal."

As to more or less strategy, there is no placement relationship of the tee shot to consider, so there is inherently less strategy on the hole.  Its limited to placment on the green, shot shape, etc.  That is why I think CBM did "concept shots" like the precision, Biaritz, Eden and Redan on par 3 holes.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Carl Rogers

Re: Over-rated Architectural Features - Par 3s in different directions
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2008, 08:50:22 AM »
perhaps a little o/t....

will newer courses have some of the following properties?
- on hillier, more choppy terrain on smaller property sizes suggest a greater number of par three's than the standard number of 4??
- less emphasis on long par 5's??

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Over-rated Architectural Features - Par 3s in different directions
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2008, 04:56:18 AM »

It amazes me how often an architect will state proudly that the Par 3s at so and so course all play in different directions.  Or how often having par 3s playing in the same direction is seen as an architectural weakness

Some people seem to think it is important / clever.  I don't quite get it.

To me it is probably one of the last things I notice about a course and is more a nice piece of trivia.

If you are playing on a course with little wind, it does not seem to matter.  If you are playing on a course with a lot of wind it can sometimes even out the hole lengths.

I think that it is imortant that the player experiences the wind at different orientations throughout his round but I have never understood why the par 3s would be such an important subset of this. 

To me it is more important that holes of similar type are balanced, eg. it is nice if there are two short par 4s that one is downwind and one is into the the wind so that there are a variety of strategies in the round.  That way one can have a drive and pitch strategy and one can be drivable.   

But par 3s have little strategy.  If they are a variety of lengths then that provides variety and if all the holes on the course are varied in direction then the player faces a variety of wind orientations on his iron shots throughout the round as a whole. 

It wouldn't factor into my enjoyment or ranking of a course unless it was an extreme example.  Ayone agree or disagree?  How important is par 3 orientation to you?  Do you notice it when you are playing?


David, I've been thinking about this thread over the last few days and I really think that divergant par 3 directions are important. I disagree with your view.

Some archittects will no doubt design a course with this characteristic because it seems like a smart or cool thing to do. Others simply pay no attention to the compass points, and place the par 3s where they fit.

As long as the par 3 holes are varied in character and all of good quality, I'm essentilly happy. I do like the one shot holes to have good variety, but not only in their lengths and greens - also in their orrientation. I notice it a fair bit.

Think of Royal Melbourne East for a moment. A good set of par 3 holes (2 outstanding holes in 4 and 16). They are varied in their length (#4 at 201yds, #6 at 175yds, #13 at 148yds & #16 at 167yds)

Whevever I play East, I'm always disappointed if the wind is strong, and especially if it's a northerly.

These par 3 holes align in very similar directions and 4, 6 and 16 almost identical compass points. A southerly aids most par 3 tee shots and makes landing the greens more difficult. The same dilemma and shot making demand repeatedly requested. Sometimes the same club is ised, despite the varied length of the holes.

Northerly winds see these holes all play into the breeze. This has me leave the 1st tee thinking, I'm going to have to smash tee shots on all 4 par 3s. Or take lots of club. Repeatedly. Despite the variety in the hole designs.

I played a course 2 weeks back, and hit a 19* hybrid 135m into the wind. 3 holes later I was again faced with another 135m par 3 but this time orriented in the opposite direction. A high floating downwind Pitching Wedge and 2 putts. My return visit may see me hit these shots but on the opposite holes, with a different wind.

Different par 3 style of play during a round, and different shots on the same holes on repeat play, is augmented by varying the orrientation in par 3 holes. I agree with you that this aspect of design alone is insufficient to ensure quality golf. The lengths of the holes should vary, as should the greens.

I suspect you may be drawing your conclusions on single visits or low numbers of rounds to particular courses, and that if you played these courses more, you'd see the benefits of greater variety in orrienting par 3s to different compass points.

MM

P.S. We haven't even spoken about cross winds yet! :)
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Over-rated Architectural Features - Par 3s in different directions
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2008, 05:19:43 AM »
How important is par 3 orientation to you? 
I think it is a great feature as long as the holes are good. If it is done for the sake of meeting some criteria & one or more of the holes are poor because of it, then it’s poor design.
Do you notice it when you are playing?
No, I rarely notice such things. I am directionally inept & consider myself lucky just to get to the course without getting lost.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Over-rated Architectural Features - Par 3s in different directions
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2008, 07:48:07 AM »
Andrew,

That was sort of my first point. I rarely notice hole orientation, unless the cousre is truly back and forth, or unless it truly changes direction every hole.  But, having been able to talk to many tour pros and other top players over the years, I was always surprised to hear just how much they notice things like that. So, I think its important, subject to them being good holes. I think everyone prefers good holes to well oriented holes.

They also often have some pretty "strict" ideas of what kind of features play well in different winds.  Basically, it all goes to the question of should a golf course ever intentionally hurt a player or should it help him hit the proper shots.  And, how uncomfortable should the course make the golfer?

I have heard them all and think its impossible to accommodate every good players shots as consistently as they would like.  But, I do pay attention to alternate directions because they pay attention and I do try to avoid certain combos of par 3 holes - like water right when the wind blows right to left.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Over-rated Architectural Features - Par 3s in different directions
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2008, 08:30:37 AM »
I think there is much to be said for short holes which play in different directions. On a links course, for instance, you may well have to make a bump-and-run approach downwind and a full hit into the wind (with perhaps an allowance of two clubs' difference from clubbing the same holes on a windless day).

There is another factor about short holes which is relevant to a lot of British courses. On which hole numbers do the short holes occur? It is relevant to foursomes play. At my home club, Wilmslow, in a mixed foursome the ladies always elect to drive at the 1st hole because it means they are saved from the difficult tee shot, all carry across a valley to the par-3 14th. The other short holes are the 6th, 9th and 17th, so they will get the tee shot at two of the short holes, 9th and 17th, neither of which is an easy shot for a lady golfer.
Which brings to mind two features of Alwoodley; first, the fact that all four par 3s fall in an eight hole run from 7 to 14 and that the first three of them are odd-numbered (7, 9, 11), secondly the way 7 and 14 lie next to each other and are almost exactly parallel.  Does the course suffer as a result?  Not in the slightest, in my opinion, and these are fourexcellent par 3s, all playing very differently - a short, well bunkered one (7), a long one, calling for plenty ofclub in the prevailing wind and possibly a draw into the green (9), a wonderful medium length up hill one, with a heavily contoured green (11) and another longish one, to a green with a heavily contoured front and an obvious deep bunker front right which suggests a fade into the green and a less obvious "sucker" bunker on the left.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Over-rated Architectural Features - Par 3s in different directions
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2008, 06:30:05 AM »
"There should be a short hole facing each point of the compass, a par 5 that no-one can reach in two shots and an 18th hole that finishes under the clubhouse window and has a flat green to encourage a tight finish in matchplay." - James Braid
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."