[Anthony Gray]

AG. You seem to missing a major focal point of this forum. ARCHITECTURE. That is the crux of the matter. Certainly not how one feels about how they were treated or played. Focus, learn and then opine. Please?

  Adam,

  The thread is about the intangibles not purley architecture.       


    Anthony

[Kenny Baer]

Adam,
"Learn, then post" Well said!!!
On the cape kid forum ag said "pebble has had majors, I think"
What the heck?
Adam, sorry if I misquoted u I am typing this on my blackberry.

[Eric Smith]

On the cape kid forum ag said "pebble has had majors, I think"
What the heck?

and you fell for his shtick 

or

post then learn?


My prediction: You and Dr. Gray will be thick as thieves after playing together in a couple weeks.

[Mark Pritchett]

I have to agree with Chip.  I have had several "10" experiences, though not necessarily on "10" courses.  

[Andy Troeger]

Put me with the group that doesn't include intangibles with rating courses. Intangibles can change every time one visits a course. I've played Black Mesa with Pat B., Eddie P., and Tom V., and had a wonderful experience, but also played it when there was an outing on the course, play was fairly slow, and there were people in carts with the outing driving all over. The "experience" was obviously better in the first example, but its the same course both days.

[Anthony Gray]

  I guess in the past I have been guilty of traveling just to play a course because it was ranked and I have missed out on other gems. Many times these gems are more fun than the ranked courses. Now I travel to have a 10 experience.

  Anthony

[Andy Troeger]

  I guess in the past I have been guilty of traveling just to play a course because it was ranked and I have missed out on other gems. Many times these gems are more fun than the ranked courses. Now I travel to have a 10 experience.

I certainly find no fault with that logic. I just don't think that the experience can or should be included in a ranking of golf courses. The whole process is subjective--but "experience" or "tradition" types of points are even more subjective and depend on too many factors that have little or nothing to do with the course itself. Its just hard to do a good ranking on that. One has to know their own preferences and do a little research to figure out where they would have the most fun. It sounds like that is your method.

If I go travel somewhere I don't necessarily always shoot for the highest ranked course--there are often other factors involved. My personal opinions almost always at least have some slight differences from the various lists--sometimes significant differences.

[Mark Chaplin]

Chip for those truly interested in GCA then ratings are about the course however for most golfers the overall package forms part of their rating of a golf curse/club. The "average" club member who appreciates the game and course design would surely down grade most clubs if the experience let the day down.

Imagine arriving at Merion, being escorted to the pro shop, pay out several hundred dollars, meet your caddie on the first tee. Finish the round get marched to your car and waved off as you leave the property. Not many players would give it a 9 or a 10.

A couple of years back I played Hoylake a few months before the Open, lots of areas were fenced off and the golfing experience was reduced. My partners were not dining so I went into the dining room alone. Despite hosting the R&A Championship committee for the day and lunch the club secretary spotting my club tie wandered over, introduced himself and sat down chatting for 5 minutes over a glass of wine. I retired to the bar for a kummel, an elderly member approached me and asked if I wanted a little tour of the clubhouse. He spent half an hour wandering arounding telling stories and pointing out some of their vast historic collection. It turned out he was a former RL captain and chairman of the R&A Championship committee!

A course that on the day was a 3 or 4 turned into an experience of a 9.

[Matt_Ward]

Mark C:

Thanks for the wonderful account -- no doubt people will be swayed by the "other" elements that happen on a visit. The thing to keep in mind is when a course is being "ranked" -- it's the sheer total of what the 18 holes represents that is the core of such assessments.

Unfortunately, there are courses that do what you used in your imaginary illustration. Are you then fully able to separate that part of the visit from what you encountered when playing?

Gents:

What's often missed by the trophy course players -- those defined as seeking out only the existing rated courses -- is that they fail to delve below the surface and find out if there's more to an area than just the subject course they are targeting.

Generally, I often ask the local folks where else is good golf to be found. Assuming you can find somewhat knowledgeable people the info provided can often times be quite rewarding.

Anthony, it seems your personal golf "adventure" is fixated (as it should be for you) on what gives you the greatest pleasure. More power to you.

However, keep this mind, when you take that narrow self enjoyment (which often is based on non-architecture items) and then widen then to a broader call that such courses are then at the top of the charts for OVERALL consumption I believe you have lost a good many people -- myself included.

I've played more than my fair share of superb and unique layouts high on the experience meter but were really a good bit less if held to a standard of the "best" when strict architecture is held side-by-side.

That doesn't mean to downplay your own personal enjoyment but when courses are truly analyzed it pays to really see the driving force that lies at their core -- it's the 18 holes / architecture.

[Tom_Doak]

Anthony:

Incidentally, when I looked back at the GOLF Magazine rankings of the top 100 courses to count how many of them I'd played for Jonathan, I noticed that North Berwick made their top 100 list last year!  So either the premise of your argument is a bit off, or "experience" counts for something, or a course with 18 cool holes (but few really hard ones) has room in the top 100, even if a bomber like Matt Ward might discount those holes for not being tough enough.

[Bill Brightly]

Calling Pebble Beach a 10 reminds me of a MAJOR pet peeve I have with the place: Having the caddy switch my clubs from MY light bag into one of THEIR light bags! What is up with that? They do this at Spyglass and Spanish Bay, too. No way I am gonna have a top ten experience when I start the round pissed off. I want MY bag with MY stuff in the pockets where I always keep MY stuff!

Are all California caddies pussies? Do I need to remind everyone about the old leather Burton bags so many of us had to carry as young caddies in LONG pants???

P.S. I played Pebble this year with my new GCA ultra light Sun Mountain bag and the caddy deemed it OK to carry!!!

[Anthony Gray]

  First of all please forgive me  for my spelling. I have  been misunderstood again on this site. I do not dispute the course rankings in eny way. All I am saying is that some of these courses that are highly ranked and deservidly so are less enjoyable to play than some of the lesser ranked courses. Again if I was ranking courses I would rank Pinehurst ahead of Cruden Bay. But the golfing experience at Cruden Bay is far superior to Pinehurst.

   I stated on an earlier thread that it does not matter if Cape Kidnappers is in the top 10 of Golf Magazine the most important thing is that it is a 10 in golfing experience .  And I assumed that it was Tom Doak's goal to give the golfer a 10 experience instead of producing a top 10 course. Please forgive me if my assumption is wrong.

  So my question remains. Which courses give you a 10 experience?

  I would like to add one thing. In Dalton GA. there is a course named Knob North. It has risk/reward off all most every tee. It is very playable and not overly penel. It is a muni and not very costly. It would never be considerd in enybody's top 500 but it is truly a gem and for the money the best course I have played. A 10 experience.




  Anthony



 


 

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

Just a quick retort to your last comment -- I do like a range of courses and have opined on any number of them on this site. My general affection for quality golf architecture is not bound to those courses that are 75+ CR's and 145+ slopes.

That's a nice, but erroneous stereotype with the "bomber" tagline.

I think my overall listing of courses - not just those that have less overall architecture and are high on the "experience" meter. I have mentioned plenty of times about "cool" holes that aren't back breakers and often times have sought to promote such places and the lesser known architects who have helped bring them into existence.

[Peter Pallotta]

Anthony - I hope you don't mind an aside, but I've meant to mention this for months and this seems like a good place:

I wish I was able to rank courses. I really do. I think it would be cool, and I'd have something to share with you folks. But I have no idea how it's done, or how anyone else manages to do it.  I mean, I could tell you what course I liked the MOST and which I liked the LEAST -- but I have no clue what my, say, 7th favourite course is or how it compares to my 42nd favourite, and trying to rank numbers 14, 15, and 16 would make me mental...

I understand the idea of not "comparing" courses, and of instead saying that this course is a 10, and that one a 7 etc -- and if I tried that approach it might make it easier for me to do (just a little).  But the idea of placing in some comparative order the courses I've played I find impossible, and I think that even the 10s, 9s, 8s etc scale has an element of this comparison in it, at least implicitely

Peter 

[Tim Book]

Bill,

You remind me of one of my more memorable golf 'expierences'.  First time to play Pebble.  First group of the day.  Lots of nervous energy running thru our group.  My all time favorite golf buddy and I are going to share a caddy.  Caddy rolls up to the tee and gives us some story about not being able to caddy two double strapped bags.  My buddy and I get into a mexican stand-off about who is going to empty his bag.   I finally relent.  Not the best way to start your Pebble 'expierence'.  My buddy and I still joke about it.

Same expierence about two weeks ago, the 'policy' is still part of the Pebble program.

[Chip Gaskins]

That's why I carried my own at Pebble.  I don't like folks adjusting my walking straps

[Mike Benham]

... of a MAJOR pet peeve I have with the place ...

And I assume that your pet peeve would still be present at CPC ...

But, the need to switch bags is not entirely based on weight, it is also based on the strap configuration as many dual strap bags don't hang right when a caddie is double bagging.

[Tim Bert]

... of a MAJOR pet peeve I have with the place ...

And I assume that your pet peeve would still be present at CPC ...

But, the need to switch bags is not entirely based on weight, it is also based on the strap configuration as many dual strap bags don't hang right when a caddie is double bagging.

My left-handed Sun Mountain carry bag tends to come in handy in this situation. 

Still, no way I can imagine around being ruined by the caddie telling me he is going to change my bag out.  It's not a spouse, a child, a pet, or even a purse.  It's just my golf bag, and it doesn't really care if it sits in a caddy shack or gets toted around the course.

[Philippe Binette]

Changing the golf bag... that is ridiculous.

Golf is about, getting out of the car, put your shoes on (even tour guys puts their shoes on in the parking lot), go to the pro shop or starter and step on the first tee.

Brian Schneider put it best when we had a debate on the service at Barnbougle. He said:

Golf is not about having to tip five guys on your way to the first tee

[Kalen Braley]

I've had my bag switched out on at least one occasion.

Perhaps I'm just low maintaince but I don't get what the big deal is.  You get what you need from your bag, stick it in the new one, and off you go.  Takes a minute or two at most....am I missing something?  And rounds are always nicer when you aren't carrying to boot. 

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

For those guys who bark and whine about having their bags changed or the straps altered -- let me point out something from the flip side.

You do have people in this world who EXPECT their old style Burton bags (which contained more items than the troops had to lug on their assault on Normandy) for the duration of the round.

I applaud places that have caddies that don't want to have their personnel LUG some golf TRUNK for the duration of 18 holes.

If you are playing a place with such a bag and the staff requests a change for the benefit of the person who takes the assignment I don't think it hurts to be a bit more helpful -- rather than self motivated along the lines of "how dare they suggest such a thing."

Most people I know who walk have the appropriate bag that lends itself to such things. However, just realize this -- you have a percentage of players who have bags that could store supplies for years even if the world ended today -- these same clowns then EXPECT that type of bag to be carried. Frankly, the slaves had an easier job in lugging the items needed to built the pyramids.

Mike B said it best -- if any of you play CP and they said this is the type of bag that's needed in order to play a round there -- the whiners on this thread would on the spot throw their former bag in the ocean and comply in a New York second.

Mike, you are so right -- when someone double loops the straps likely have to be adjusted for the proper feel and weight distribution.

[Steve D]

I had my clubs switched to another bag at Pebble, at Baltusrol my strap was completely taken off reattached in a new configuration to make it easier for the caddy to double bag and I've had my bag carried exactly "as is" at countless places. 

One thing that I have noticed is that when a caddy double bags with the strap configured for a single carry the straps themselves really get chewed up.  I bought a light weight Taylor Made bag in March and am currently on the 3rd strap which is actually a strap from an older Titleist bag I had.  It seems to be holding up better.  I guess what I'm getting at is that caddies can be really hard on straps so its probably not a bad idea to let them switch over to another bag or set it up for what works best for them.  It may make your bag last longer.

Steve

[Mike Hendren]

Some ten experiences this year off the top of my head: 

Lehigh
LuLu
Omaha CC
Idle Hour CC

The opportunity to experience a classical golf course that hasn't been ruined or that has been restored or lovingly renovated is a ten every time.

Bogey

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