RANKINGS RANKINGS RANKINGS

[Anthony Gray]

  This stuff is so subjective, It is becoming a hugh monster that almost does not make since enymore. At this piont noone even knows what the criteria is enymore.

  So let me ask this question. Which course offers a 10 expierence?

  I do not want to debate how horrible Pebble Beach no. 12 is, Pebble Beach is truly a 10 experience.

   Cruden Bay is not a championship course but is truly a 10 experience.

   A resent thread debated Cape Kidnapers being in the top 10. Give me a break. It definatly looks like a 10 in experience.

   I went to Kiawah and was nowhere treated the way I was treated at Pebble Beach. Nowhere a 10.

   The Old Course i have played over 20 times always a 10 purely on history.

   So speak your mind. Tell it all. Many of the "top 100" do not give you a 10 experience.

   I have never played Augusta or Cypress Piont but how could they not give you a 10 experience.

   I have been misunderstood many times on this site but how could enyone not have a 10 experience at North Berwick?

  Is not that the goal of our fellow Tom Doak. To give the golfer a 10 experience?

     Anthony

[Tom_Doak]

Anthony:

I don't think my goal is to give you a "10" experience ... especially the way you seem to be defining it, or at least, you'll have to give a better definition than you have so far.

What is a "10" experience to you?

To me it has very very little to do with the way I'm treated at one place or another -- a lot of which has to do with the circumstances in which you visit a place.  It's possible to get the "bum's rush" even at a club like Cypress Point if you are there as the unaccompanied guest of somebody ... although I'll admit it's pretty rare. 

Equally so, I think that some clubs go way too far in "taking care" of people if you know what I mean ... it should all be more like Scotland where everybody pays, and everybody gets treated appropriately, with little fanfare.

Does scenery count in a "10" experience?  For most people I think it would.  There are certain courses that are so cool they overcome a lack of scenery, though.

Or is it all about the golf holes?  I'm afraid it can't be if you want to overlook the 12th at Pebble Beach.

[Anthony Gray]

  Tom,

  Thanks for responding. I believe that there is too much emphasis on whether a course is a top 10 or a 10 on your personal scale or even a 10 or 9 on the Doak Scale. I know from personal experiences that there are many gems out there that lack respect because of all these rankings.
I thought from your interviews and writings that the most important thing about your work is to provide the golfer with the ultimate experience then to create a "US Open course" or have a top 10 course. Many of the top 10 course are difficult to play for a golfer of my abilities but my experiences at Pacific Dunes have always been enjoyable. Pebble Beach may not be a 10 on the Doak Scale but the course is definatly a 10 on experience dispite the "weak holes'.


        Anthony

[Greg Tallman]

Anthony,

I would be interested in learning why you felt PB treated you much better than Kiawah... opposite if what i would have expected and am seriously interested in details.

[Anthony Gray]

   This is very subjective as to what gives you a 10 experience. As a 11 to 15 handicaper I do not want to feel beat up after I finish my round. I like courses that are playable. The only time I played Royal County Down if you were one foot of the fairway you had to pitch out. No fun. Too penal. Not a 10 experience for me. Definatly a top 10 course and championship course but not a 10 experience for me. Pinehurst.....great course but all the home sites not a 10 experirnce for me. Cruden Bay.....not a championship course...lacks length and fame but I could not think of a more enjoyable course. Teeth of the Dog......is a ten for experience because of the ocean and quality of the par 3's but does not compare to Pinehurst as a course.

  Anthony

 

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony,

I would be interested in learning why you felt PB treated you much better than Kiawah... opposite if what i would have expected and am seriously interested in details.

  Greg,

  The scenery is superior at Pebble. You can take a walk wiyh your wife early in the morning or late at night without security hassels. Resteraunts are superior at Pebble. And the angles of the tee are better for the mid handicaper at Pebble. The Ocean course is fabulous but it seems like off the tee every hole is a cape hole. The angles do not fit my eye like at Pebble. And the rooms at the lodge are mutch better. It is amuch more romantic place.

   As for the golf I found the course more playable and less penel at Pebble which equates to more fun.

  Anthony




   

[Mike Nuzzo]

Anthony,

Can a Bermuda Grass course be a 10?   

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony,

Can a Bermuda Grass course be a 10?   

  Mike

  Awesome. If I can break 90 on it then it has great potential. But only in the summer.



   Anthony

[Matt_Ward]

Anthony:

Agree w Tom D 100% -- while it's certainly unfortunate when people are treated in a half-ass manner -- that particular episode has nothing to do with the elements of the course itself.

That would the equivalent of assessing a course with tie ins to the food, driving range, type of practice balls, locker room staff, etc, etc, etc.

For some people the "experience" in visiting such a place IS TIED inexorably to the elements I just mentioned and likely a laundry list of others I did not mention.

For me -- it's the 18-holes pure and simple. I can get an outstanding cold beer relatively near to where I live -- but the golf side of things is a stand alone issue and it's one that I believe should be seen for what it is at its core component. The rest is simply window dressing.

[PCCraig]

Anthony,

I would be interested in learning why you felt PB treated you much better than Kiawah... opposite if what i would have expected and am seriously interested in details.

  Greg,

  The scenery is superior at Pebble. You can take a walk wiyh your wife early in the morning or late at night without security hassels. Resteraunts are superior at Pebble. And the angles of the tee are better for the mid handicaper at Pebble. The Ocean course is fabulous but it seems like off the tee every hole is a cape hole. The angles do not fit my eye like at Pebble. And the rooms at the lodge are mutch better. It is amuch more romantic place.

   As for the golf I found the course more playable and less penel at Pebble which equates to more fun.

  Anthony




   

If you had more "fun" at Kiawah, then isn't that more of a "10" than Pebble? Quite frankly, the idea of taking uninterupted walks with your walks doesn't have much to do with anything...either service or the golf course.

[John Kirk]

Where's Mike Vegis?  I thought an alarm went off in his house when the word "Kiawah" was typed on the website.

[Anthony Gray]

   Matt,

  Thanks for your input. But there is no way one can evaluate the course simply by architectural terms. Eric Smith hit on this on a recent thread. Would Pebble Beach be Pebble Beach without the view. Would Cape Kidnapers be Cape Kidnappers without the view. You just cannot discount the intangibles. Tom Huckaby mentoined that it is very hard for a modern course to crack the top 10 due to historical factors. I an told that for some premier players that Cypress Piont is a driver and a wedge. No modern course would be in the top 10 if it is a driver and a wedge.


     Anthony

[Chip Gaskins]

I 100% agree with Matt and Tom.  You are evaluating the golf course, not the experience.  

Pine Valley was a 10 experience and a 10 golf course...obviously it gets a 10.

Augusta was a 10+ experience, but an 8 golf course for me.  Augusta gets an 8, not a 10.

Cypress was a 8 experience (trunk slammer special) but a 10 golf course.  Cypress gets a 10.

Southern Pines Golf Club is a -1 experience and a 7 golf course...it gets a 7.

Wild Horse is a 4 experience and 7 golf course, it gets a 7.

Its about the golf course, not the locker room or wine list.  Its really hard for people to break those two things apart.

[Adam Clayman]

AG. You seem to missing a major focal point of this forum. ARCHITECTURE. That is the crux of the matter. Certainly not how one feels about how they were treated or played. Focus, learn and then opine. Please?

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony,

I would be interested in learning why you felt PB treated you much better than Kiawah... opposite if what i would have expected and am seriously interested in details.

  Greg,

  The scenery is superior at Pebble. You can take a walk wiyh your wife early in the morning or late at night without security hassels. Resteraunts are superior at Pebble. And the angles of the tee are better for the mid handicaper at Pebble. The Ocean course is fabulous but it seems like off the tee every hole is a cape hole. The angles do not fit my eye like at Pebble. And the rooms at the lodge are mutch better. It is amuch more romantic place.

   As for the golf I found the course more playable and less penel at Pebble which equates to more fun.

  Anthony




   

If you had more "fun" at Kiawah, then isn't that more of a "10" than Pebble? Quite frankly, the idea of taking uninterupted walks with your walks doesn't have much to do with anything...either service or the golf course.

   Pat,

  The golf and  before and after golf experiences at Pebble are far superior than Kiawah. I am not saying the Kiawah is horrible but I knew Pebble and Kiawah is no Pebble.

  Anthony

[Chip Gaskins]

  Matt,
  Thanks for your input. But there is no way one can evaluate the course simply by architectural terms. Eric Smith hit on this on a recent thread. Would Pebble Beach be Pebble Beach without the view. Would Cape Kidnapers be Cape Kidnappers without the view. You just cannot discount the intangibles. Tom Huckaby mentoined that it is very hard for a modern course to crack the top 10 due to historical factors. I an told that for some premier players that Cypress Piont is a driver and a wedge. No modern course would be in the top 10 if it is a driver and a wedge.
     Anthony

Ballyneal, Sand Hills, and Pacific Dunes are none particularity long (in modern terms).  All are worthy of Top 10 status.  Cypress is short, the longest club I hit was 6 iron, but it still easily ranks in my Top 3.  I had to think on every shot because I seemed to always have options on ways to play holes.  Just fun fun stuff.  I bet Riviera is like this but I have not played it. 

Pebble Beach would not be ranked 200 in the world without the views, but then again, it wouldn't be Pebble.

There certainly are some pretty highly ranked course will some mediocre views.  Some would say Sand Hills, Merion, and Pinehurst #2 are pretty ugly on a side by side comparison to many seaside courses.

[Anthony Gray]

AG. You seem to missing a major focal point of this forum. ARCHITECTURE. That is the crux of the matter. Certainly not how one feels about how they were treated or played. Focus, learn and then opine. Please?

  Adam,

  With total respect for you and golf architecture. This is why I asked this question. Do you not think that the rankings are overrated. Shouldn't the most important aspect of golf course architecture be that the golfer has a wonderful experience.

   Personally I have a better experience on a course that is playale and does not beat me up.

  I think you misunderstood my piont on an earlier thread about CK. I love the fact that it does not look extremely penel of the tee. I would not want to fly half way around the world to get beat up by a course. But I will fly half way around the world to play CK.

  Thanks for your comments ........ Anthony

[Matt_Ward]

Anthony:

The setting of a golf course is a debatable point but one I can see having a direct meaning to the standing of a course for a number of people. However, how staff treats people is not a core area -- ditto the food, driving range, et al.

Anthony, in regards to the meaning of rankings -- they are consensus driven results and I frankly don't see how consensus says anything of importance because I have seen many times -- especially in the most recent years -- a desire to protect sacred cows when you have a plethora of top tier new layouts that are simply outstanding.

Anthony, you have elevated the critical component FOR YOURSELF in not being "beat up" by a golf course. Under that heading -- you're more than likely going to deduct points from such places as Bethpage Black and Winged Foot / West, to name just two.

I believe various courses should be rated and such inclusions should go beyond just simply how a particular course fits your game or whether or not you get "beat up." However, I am also quite wise to know that many people do in fact courses because of how that specific course relates to one's own game.

Self interest often trumpets the general interest or as my late father was wont to say -- where you stand on the issue depends upon where you sit. 

[PCCraig]

Golf COURSE rankings rank the COURSE first.

[Chip Gaskins]

Golf COURSE rankings rank the COURSE first.

Or are you saying "rank the course ONLY"

[PCCraig]

Golf COURSE rankings rank the COURSE first.

Or are you saying "rank the course ONLY"

yes...i'll spare the caps this time! 

[Anthony Gray]

  Matt,

  Thank you. I can't help being frustraded by seeing the omission of courses like North Berwick and Prestwick from these top 100 lists.

  These courses are no doubt top 10 experiences but are never ranked by the "experts".
 
 

       Anthony

[PCCraig]

Anthony...can you name an "expert?"

[Bart Bradley]

Not to pile on..but our esteemed Ran puts N. Berwick and Prestwick in his WORLD top 100...I think he is an expert.   .

Bart

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony...can you name an "expert?"

  Pat,

 This is too easy......... John Kavanaugh ..........The finest mind in golf.



   Anthony