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Patrick_Mucci_Jr

The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« on: November 21, 2008, 05:57:42 PM »
What seemingly benign holes take on an entirely different personality when the prevailing winds shift direction ?

I'd nominate the 10th at Seminole.

A relatively short, straight away, wide fairwayed hole.

With the prevailing winds from the south/southeast the hole is rather benign

When a North wind sweeps the course, and the hole location is left of center the hole becomes a nightmare, especially when the greens are putting at 10 or above.

The green is a bit of a penisula with the water front, left and behind the green.  A green that slopes from right to left toward the water on the left.

Like # 11 at  ANGC, when the hole is cut far left, the prudent shot is to the center or right center of the green.

However, into a strong wind, it's much more difficult shot.

And, balls hit to the right of the hole can be putted off the green into the water.

It's a hole with a multiple personality.  Personalities that vary with the direction and the velocity of the wind.

It goes from a normally benign hole to a truely frightening hole when the wind shifts from the south to the north.

What other holes transition from Dr Jekyll to Mr Hyde when the potion, the wind, shifts from it's prevailing directions ?

When # 10 becomes exponentially more difficult, # 17 and # 18 become relatively benign with the same shift in wind direction.

I believe that to be one of the geniuses of Seminole's design.

Wind direction and velocity produces a markedly different golf course that's still a great challenge and a lot of fun to play.

I believe the catalyst for that quality is .......... WIDTH in the fairways

JESII

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2008, 06:24:52 PM »

I believe the catalyst for that quality is .......... WIDTH in the fairways

Really?


At Seminole specifically, I would think the nature of the greens (and green complexes) deserves the lions share of the credit for this great characteristic.

How about #14? Width is certainly not a main attribute of this hole, but it sure is a different animal when playing into the West / Northwest wind.

The greens at Seminole seem like they are built to reject the ball. When playing into the wind your effective approach is much longer which, for me at least, equates to less accuracy...


Tom Huckaby

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2008, 08:26:31 PM »
The courses at Bandon Dunes have to be poster children for this concept; which of course is as it must be given they have two different prevailing winds, changing on the seasons.

The genius there is making holes play well in BOTH winds.  Think about it - that's not an easy trick.  I'm sure those who have been there can nominate holes on each of the courses where this is the case.  But it seems that Pacific Dunes has many that stand out.

TH

Kalen Braley

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2008, 09:14:16 PM »
Tom,

I was thinking the same.  Holes like 4, 13, 18, 15, etc at PD can either play like beasts or pussycats based on the two prevailing winds.

Anthony Gray

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2008, 09:20:09 PM »


  Pebble Beach 7 has to be the first choice here.

     Anthony


Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2008, 10:36:03 PM »

I believe the catalyst for that quality is .......... WIDTH in the fairways

Really?

At Seminole specifically, I would think the nature of the greens (and green complexes) deserves the lions share of the credit for this great characteristic.

Really !

Fairway width is THE vital component for windy sites, especially when wind direction is variable.


How about #14? Width is certainly not a main attribute of this hole, but it sure is a different animal when playing into the West / Northwest wind.

# 14 has a wide fairway in the DZ.
The fairway gets pinched in a limited area for the second shot, but, overall, it's a wide fairway, just like the others.


The greens at Seminole seem like they are built to reject the ball. When playing into the wind your effective approach is much longer which, for me at least, equates to less accuracy...

The configuration of the greens effectively shrinks their functional use.

When you factor in the wind, some of them effectively become one third their actual size



JESII

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2008, 09:49:56 AM »
Pat,

Fairway width may be A vital component at wiindy sites, but it is the green complexes at Seminole that give the holes, and the course, the multiple personality feature you point out with this thread.

Take #14 that you suggest has a wide fairway and that width is THE vital component on windy sites...in what type of wind would you approach to the hole vary from side to side? In other words, when would you ever aim anywhere other than in the middle of that fairway?

Jeff_Brauer

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2008, 10:01:53 AM »
I'll be contrarian, but how about a place like ANGC?  When the wind blows, the tall pines make it swirl and disguise it.  The wind may be affecting your shots but you never know for sure.  That might be tougher than a strong, direct wind, even if you don't realize it at the time.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dave_Miller

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2008, 01:48:39 PM »
What seemingly benign holes take on an entirely different personality when the prevailing winds shift direction ?

I'd nominate the 10th at Seminole.

A relatively short, straight away, wide fairwayed hole.

With the prevailing winds from the south/southeast the hole is rather benign

When a North wind sweeps the course, and the hole location is left of center the hole becomes a nightmare, especially when the greens are putting at 10 or above.

The green is a bit of a penisula with the water front, left and behind the green.  A green that slopes from right to left toward the water on the left.

Like # 11 at  ANGC, when the hole is cut far left, the prudent shot is to the center or right center of the green.

However, into a strong wind, it's much more difficult shot.

And, balls hit to the right of the hole can be putted off the green into the water.

It's a hole with a multiple personality.  Personalities that vary with the direction and the velocity of the wind.

It goes from a normally benign hole to a truely frightening hole when the wind shifts from the south to the north.

What other holes transition from Dr Jekyll to Mr Hyde when the potion, the wind, shifts from it's prevailing directions ?

When # 10 becomes exponentially more difficult, # 17 and # 18 become relatively benign with the same shift in wind direction.

I believe that to be one of the geniuses of Seminole's design.

Wind direction and velocity produces a markedly different golf course that's still a great challenge and a lot of fun to play.

I believe the catalyst for that quality is .......... WIDTH in the fairways

Patrick:
Don't most Par three's take on an entirely different personality when the wind is blowing srong and hard.  Either against or with or swirling, etc.
Best
Dave

Anthony Gray

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2008, 01:53:31 PM »


  Fellow connoisseurs of golf you have to be kidding me.
What about PB no. 7?


  Anthony




JESII

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2008, 01:56:05 PM »
Jeff,

I don't think that's contrarian at all. I doubt anyone would argue that an inconsistent swirling wind is more difficult than a consistent one, so much so that it doesn't really provide the opportunity for the architect to design for it, does it?

Pat's point is interesting, even though I disagree with it about Seminole specifically, and possibly all golf courses.

In your opinion, how could fairway width trump green complex design in the context of providing interest, challenge and quality to golf courses subject to strong and varying winds?

Phil Benedict

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2008, 03:06:31 PM »
Any hole with an elevated tee becomes way harder when the wind is against, accentuating any type of curvature because the ball is in the air for long.  This is the hardest tee shot for me by a wide margin.

Is there any hole that plays easier into the wind?  I can't think of any although front hole locations are tougher to get at down wind.

Dave_Miller

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2008, 03:36:20 PM »


  Fellow connoisseurs of golf you have to be kidding me.
What about PB no. 7?
  Anthony


Anthony:
Everyone knows about PB #7.  When the wind is coming in hard and strong off the water it becomes quite the challenge ;)
Best
Dave

JESII

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2008, 03:45:32 PM »
What is the prevailing wind at Pebble?


Phil,

I would think many of the shorter links holes in Great Britian would play substantially easier into the wind...up to a certain degree of wind...
 

Jfaspen

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2008, 03:45:43 PM »
18 at Kapalua Plantation?

Reachable huge par 5 if it's downwind..

Tough 3 shotter if the wind shifts..

john_stiles

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2008, 04:57:49 PM »

The entire front nine at Royal Aberdeen is more of a jack the ripper when the wind shifts and you play those in a 'breeze' opposite prevailing.

Lloyd_Cole

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2008, 05:10:33 PM »
Phil,

I would think many of the shorter links holes in Great Britian would play substantially easier into the wind...up to a certain degree of wind...
 

Jim, you're absolutely right. I was just about to post that pretty much any short links hole is a nightmare downwind. And they always seem to be that way. I recall a round at Portmarnock when all of the 'beasts' were into the wind, and when we thought we had a moment of respite we have  downwind wedge with a a front bunker...

And Jeff, also agreed regarding ANGC - there is no worse wind than the one you can't trust. How can you make a golf swing then?

JESII

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2008, 05:17:38 PM »
How about playing the 8th at Royal St. Georges with a chip 6 iron to stay short of the fescue then a chip wedge that could not possibly stop short of the back fescue...I thought it would be a great candidate until I looked at the review and it's listed at 455 yards...I wonder if I played a shorter tee.

Kevin Pallier

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2008, 09:26:28 PM »
What seemingly benign holes take on an entirely different personality when the prevailing winds shift direction ?

NSWGC Par 5 = 5th....from a northerly to a southerly 
Driver / wedge to Driver / Wood / long iron ;D



Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2008, 10:13:40 PM »
Pat,

Fairway width may be A vital component at wiindy sites, but it is the green complexes at Seminole that give the holes, and the course, the multiple personality feature you point out with this thread.

That's not true.
With narrow fairways the green complex's significance diminish rapidly as the height of the rough increases.


Take #14 that you suggest has a wide fairway and that width is THE vital component on windy sites...in what type of wind would you approach to the hole vary from side to side? In other words, when would you ever aim anywhere other than in the middle of that fairway?

When the wind is from the North or from the South.

Why on earth would you aim at the center of the fairway when a 2-3 club length wind is blowing from the North, unless you want to hit your drive into the canal in the left rough ?

 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2008, 10:18:05 PM »

I'll be contrarian, but how about a place like ANGC? 
When the wind blows, the tall pines make it swirl and disguise it.  The wind may be affecting your shots but you never know for sure.  That might be tougher than a strong, direct wind, even if you don't realize it at the time.


Jeff,

I don't think that ANGC gets the constant wind that Seminole gets.
In addition, I don't believe that the velocity of the wind at ANGC, day in and day out, comes close to the winds at Seminole.

As to the swirling nature you allude to, I believe that's confined to the 12th green area, and not to the entire golf course.

In addition, while JES and I may disagree upon the weight of the contributing components, I don't believe that ANGC's surrounds compare to Seminole's in terms of the feeding nature of the greens, approaches and fairways.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2008, 10:24:04 PM »
Phil,

Holes that play easier into the wind would seem to be those where the approach into the green has to be more vertical.

JES,

Without fairway width, their is NO variety with respect to playing the hole.

It's a pass/fail test.

Hit it in the fairway on a narrow hole and you may pass.
Hit it in the rough and you'll almost assuredly fail.

A wide fairway provides margins for both error and calibration.
A narrow fairway provides no such margins and dooms the golfer to failure almost irrespective of the green complex.

Lloyd_Cole

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2008, 12:30:07 AM »
Pat
Maybe we should set aside a portion of the site for soliloquies, because you're at it again. If you would at least name your threads better we'd know what we were getting into. This one should be named 'The Jekyll & Hide potion - Wind at Seminole'.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 01:21:16 AM by Lloyd_Cole »

Lloyd_Cole

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2008, 02:11:59 AM »
. (to quote Paul Cowley - we need the remove post reinstating)
« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 01:04:42 PM by Lloyd_Cole »

JESII

Re: The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2008, 10:15:15 AM »
OK Pat, if it's as black and white as pass/fail I assume there is a specific yardage number below which a hole is considered "narrow" and above which a hole is considered "wide"...what is it?


If you have a fairway 100 yards wide and a green sitting there as flat as a pancake why would you ever intentionally aim anywhere other than the shortest route home?

The green complex (and its orientation) dictates the intentional use of width...if the hole then has that width it's a bonus, but not mandatory to make the hole interesting.

Obviously, we are not discussing an either or situation of 20 yard fairways and knee high rough beyond that as compared to 60 yard fairways...we're talking about the real world of golf course we play and the variety inherent in them. 30 - 40 yard wide fairways tend to be the norm with some courses being more penal than others just off the fairways.

My home course has 35 or so yard wide fairways that play a small fraction of that width in the summer because of the firmness and significant slope...fortunately, the low side rough is gereally a good place to play from...we keep the rough pretty low most of the time, and never water it do dry fairways also means dried out rough...
 

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