Who Hates Bermuda

[Anthony Gray]

  It is that time of the year again when the course turns brown and my lawn looks like a dog with mainge.

  Help me supers and turf experts. Why is bermuda the grass of choice?

     Thanks............Anthony

[JSPayne]

Without going too deep into it, two critical attributes are disease resistance and drought tolerance.

The combo can save a super (and the course) quite a bit of $$$$. Even more if they decide not to overseed.

As a choice for a front lawn, I don't think I'd recommend it. Lawn grass traditionally is kept at higher mowing heights which, for any grass, means less stress than golf course turf is put under and therefore less disease pressure and deeper rooting. And in a lawn near flowerbeds, bermuda is incrediably invasive, so it requires too much maintenance for your average homeowner.

These are generalizations. But there's your basic answer from a super/maintenance standpoint.

I'm sure the rest of the treehouse will chime in with playability rational.

[TX Golf]

While it might not look pretty, I find that playing on dormant bermuda can be quite a bit of fun. Everything firms up quite a bit and the greens are lightning!!!

[Mark Pritchett]

Growing up in the South,  Bermuda grass is really all I know.


So many courses here have converted to bent greens, but I really miss the sizzle of a putt rolling through the grain toward the cup on a bermuda green.

[jim_lewis]

I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. I think dormant bermuda looks great, if it is maintained weed-free. My club has two courses, and for the first time we did not overseed one of the courses. Which one do you think is getting more play? Dormant bermuda is a great playing surface. It is playing much firmer because it does not require the water that the overseeded rye does. Those of us who grew up in the South seem to like it much more. Folks from the north seem to prefer green grass and some think dormant bermuda is dead.

Jim Lewis

[Sean Leary]

Does dormant bermuda work on courses that get a lot of play?

I hate regular bermuda because I am not used to it and I suck playing out of it.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Anthony I think you are in the wrong place...  

Thank god I don't have to mow my lawn in the winter.
And the turf is healthier than the neighbors that overseed too.

Cheers

[Nicholas Coppolo]

In my opinon, for the southerner, dormant burmuda is the best playing surface possible.

[Lou_Duran]

I don't like bermuda greens, particularly in the middle of the summer.  The ultra-dwarf hybrids are okay, but no match to well-maintained bent.  I don't like dormant bermuda fairways, particularly if they're saturated or bone dry, but I like them in the summer and early fall before they start to decline.  419 is a very nice strain.  I hate fertilized and watered bermuda rough, though lean, common bermuda 3" or less is pretty good, about 1/2 stroke penalty.  BTW, I don't much care for bent fairways either. 

[A.G._Crockett]

I don't like bermuda greens, particularly in the middle of the summer.  The ultra-dwarf hybrids are okay, but no match to well-maintained bent. 

Lou,
Have you played on Champion Bermuda greens?

[A.G._Crockett]

In my opinon, for the southerner, dormant burmuda is the best playing surface possible.

Nicholas,
As a life-long Southerner, I've got to disagree.  Dormant bermuda is fine for the first month or so of the dormant season, though even then chipping gets kind of funky at times.  I guess it is a version of firm and fast, though you can get similar speeds in the summer with the right maintenance and good weather.

But as the winter wears on and the turf thins and the root systems shut down completely, dormant bermuda becomes soggy crap all too often.  I find Feb. and March on what's left of the turf to be not much fun at all; it's just too wet, typically.

[Joe Hancock]

Is this thread about how bermudagrass plays, or how it looks??

It's the turf of choice in most southern states because it survives/ thirves in the heat.

How does everyone feel about deciduous trees in the winter?.....

[Lou_Duran]

A.G.-

Many times.  I was a member of a club that converted from SR1020 (bent) to Champion and stopped over-seeding after the first year.  It is my favorite bermuda hybrid.  In fact, the only time I have ever played bermuda greens that putted close to well-maintained bent was at Whispering Pines.  They had converted to Champion a couple of years before, and it was at the end of a drought.  The greens were smooth, ultra-fast, and extremely firm.  Unfortunately, two guys in our foursome were mid-handicappers and just couldn't control the spin on their chips and pitches so it was a very long day for them.

I am probably the exception, but I prefer putting up with pins on the edges and soft, bumpy conditions in the summer with bent than having the new hybrid bermuda greens which are put in to save on maintenance costs.  At least in the north Texas area, unless the club is willing to spend for very frequent verti-cutting, grooming, rolling, hand watering, etc. to minimize the grain, I don't think that Champion can match the performance of bent.

[Anthony Gray]

Is this thread about how bermudagrass plays, or how it looks??

It's the turf of choice in most southern states because it survives/ thirves in the heat.

How does everyone feel about deciduous trees in the winter?.....

  Joe,


 I do not like the way it looks and plays. At times you loose a ball one foot into the rough. My lawn looks terrible this time of the year. I do not like it on the fairway, on the rough, and on the green. I do not like green eggs and ham I do not like them Sam I am.


  But the heat factor explained here makes me understand the reasons for bermudas widespred use.

  Thanks............Anthony


   i

[Nicholas Coppolo]

In my opinon, for the southerner, dormant burmuda is the best playing surface possible.

Nicholas,
As a life-long Southerner, I've got to disagree.  Dormant bermuda is fine for the first month or so of the dormant season, though even then chipping gets kind of funky at times.  I guess it is a version of firm and fast, though you can get similar speeds in the summer with the right maintenance and good weather.

But as the winter wears on and the turf thins and the root systems shut down completely, dormant bermuda becomes soggy crap all too often.  I find Feb. and March on what's left of the turf to be not much fun at all; it's just too wet, typically.

Oh I don't know A.G.,
   Maybe I should've said Texans instead of Southerners, two of my fondest memories are playing a Brauer design in Plano Texas: Ridgeview Ranch all through the winter on firm, crusty brown bermuda, and Austin Country Club (who doesn't overseed) in January.  Maybe the wettness comes in  with watering in early spring, but I don't remember anything soggy.  But I don't ever associate the word soggy with North and Central Texas!  I do agree that it tends to get thin based on the amount of winter play....and both those clubs overseeded their greens so I cant speak on that front.

[A.G._Crockett]

A.G.-

Many times.  I was a member of a club that converted from SR1020 (bent) to Champion and stopped over-seeding after the first year.  It is my favorite bermuda hybrid.  In fact, the only time I have ever played bermuda greens that putted close to well-maintained bent was at Whispering Pines.  They had converted to Champion a couple of years before, and it was at the end of a drought.  The greens were smooth, ultra-fast, and extremely firm.  Unfortunately, two guys in our foursome were mid-handicappers and just couldn't control the spin on their chips and pitches so it was a very long day for them.

I am probably the exception, but I prefer putting up with pins on the edges and soft, bumpy conditions in the summer with bent than having the new hybrid bermuda greens which are put in to save on maintenance costs.  At least in the north Texas area, unless the club is willing to spend for very frequent verti-cutting, grooming, rolling, hand watering, etc. to minimize the grain, I don't think that Champion can match the performance of bent.

Lou,
Thanks for the response.  I've played on Champion greens several times, but never on the same course over an extended period of time, so my ability to compare it through the year to bent is very limited.  Champion just seems so good at the very time that bent becomes a life-or-death struggle ever summer here in GA that it is hard to resist.

[jim_lewis]

When I lived in Atlanta, our course had the problem A.G. described, soggy fairways in winter. We don't have that problem with bermuda fairways here in the Sand Hills of North Carolina. I suspect the difference is between clay soil and sandy soil. That is probably also why you rarely experience "cart path only" days here, whereas they are common all winter in Atlanta.

Sure, dormant bermuda can be a problem on courses that get a lot of winter play. Most clubs overseed the tees in order to maintain a reasonable amount of turf. In friendly play "winter rules" allow players to move their ball out of divots that won't heal until late spring.

[Sean_A]

I have only had a few experiences with bermuda.  Once in the late summer in S Carolina.  I didn't like it at all.  The grain absolutely took over all considerations and for a guy used to bent it was bewildering.  I also experienced dormant bermuda fairways a few years back and it was ok in the dry weather, but not clever after not very much rain.  The water just seemed to sit on the grass and not drain.  All that said, if its the grass makes sense for the weather and doesn't need loads of dosh to keep it alive I am all for it.  I reckon if I lived in the south I could learn to adjust how I play my game rather than adjust how much I pay for my game. 

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

I dislike Bermuda as a playing surface. I have only experienced it in Europe and in the winter time in Mexico and US... the ball never seems to roll much like the UK and missing greens leave fewer options to chip n putt...infact the chip shot almost becomes extinct..
Is the surface different in Summertime US?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Guys,
  Dormant bermudagrass as a putting surface or a fairway surface is VERY dependant on the area and the type of club that you're playing at. Ive been frtunate to play at several courses in the south that maintain their tifeagle/champion greens to such a level, that they would take away all your negative thoughts. A good aerification, grooming, verticutting, primo and topdressing program will give you incredible surfaces. I know of courses cutting well below .090 will speeds of 11+. Kudos to both Colleton River, May River and Berkeley Hall South for producing incredible playing surfaces.
  As for fairways, yes, so much is dependent of good drainage and also the soil underneth the fairway. Over several years, a soggy, slow fairway can be transformed into a firm fairway with an agressive vericutting and topdressing program. One would be amazed at the difference 8-10 topdressing can do over a couple years. Expensive? Yes. Worth the money and aggrivation? Yes, without hesitation.

Tony Nysse
Asst Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[BCrosby]

I'm with Jim Lewis and AG. Dormant Bermuda in the winter is like getting a second golf course for the price of one. In the winter you play what is, in essence, a different golf course. I think the change is delightful.

But look, whatever the complaints might be about Bermuda - it will never be as good as good bent in a NE summer - there would be no golf courses in the SE but for Bermuda. So deal with it. It's not like people chose Bermuda over other turf possibilities. It was the only choice. Bermuda was/is the only fw grass that will survive the humidity and heat of summers down this way.

(Zoysia has been introduced lately at some high end clubs. But my guess is that it will never be widely used, for a number of reasons.)

Bob   

[Anthony Gray]

    Bob,

  Thanks for you input. But there were plenty of golf courses in the southeast before bermuda was introduced.

  Let me ask this question. It is coming from a golfer not an educated player with turf knowlrdge. I believe with all the watering and possible the introduction of turfs like bermuda it has changed the game negativily. The old way when things got dry the course played differently where the bump and run was more important. Now because of watering and new turfs the weather factor has been minimized and taken use from our roots.

  Do you agree or not?

      Anthony

 

[Chris Cupit]

Fairways:  Dormant bermuda isn't bad as a playing surface early in the winter.  But by early spring it is usually wet, sloppy and it does suck   It also looks pretty crappy.  In Atlanta, MArch is without a doubt the ugliest time to play golf--asthetically and "actually".  But, I also ALWAYS play the ball down so it's even worse under those circumstances.

Greens:  Still undecided.  I've played very well groomed new ultra dwarfs that rolled well but I've also seen the same stuff that was a little more neglected and it reminded me of the same old crappy, grainy, bumpy surface.  Also, without paint the greyish color fades even more and also looks kinda "blah".

I do love the firmness of the bermuda greens although many of my members who are seniors and who have played winter golf on bermuda absolutely hated how "hard" and fast the greens were.  They couldn't hit even basic chip shots and they three putted all day long.  I have also heard the term "crusty" used to describe the bermuda greens.

[Tom Naccarato]

One of the greatest aspects of a golf course is that when it is allowed to fulfill its very own nature. In warmer climates Bermuda really holds no peer--it can be that good. Sure, there are probably better grasses which you all like to play from, but to play in any locale the grass which is best suited to the climate--part of the challenge supreme. That is if your up to the thrill of the challenge.

Bill "Redanman" Vostinak and myself played at Rustic Canyon last weekend and the conditions--the springy nature of the turf, well superintendent Jeff Hicks, deserves a great deal of thanks. It was perfect given all the parameters. For the most part he also deserves the Red Badge of Courage for what he has endured at Rustic Canyon, from fires to floods and restoration. While the degree of maintenance isn't on a par with what many of you deem "good" maintenance, its all simply because of the economy afforded him.

Getting back to Bermuda, well if any of you have any problems of playing on indifferent colored fairways, well then you really don't belong on this website. One of the greatest things is to see a course live in different suits throughout the year. When Bermuda turns gold, it is pure gold. Any surface that can produce consistent bounce and roll similar to that of the GREAT LINKS, it is good grass.

[Chris Cupit]

Getting back to Bermuda, well if any of you have any problems of playing on indifferent colored fairways, well then you really don't belong on this website. One of the greatest things is to see a course live in different suits throughout the year. When Bermuda turns gold, it is pure gold. Any surface that can produce consistent bounce and roll similar to that of the GREAT LINKS, it is good grass.

Agreed but "Gold and Wet" is no good.