[Matt_Ward]

Chris K:

To be sure -- there are people who CHASE golf courses primarily through the name of the designer. In a number of instances they routinely skip thru either ignorance or stupidity the quality designs that come forth from other designers -- not just those from TF or JN.

The pattern is no different than people who automatically buy books or movie tickets simply because of the author or director respectively. In many cases -- the present work is touted because of past successess -- not because of what is at THAT particular course.

I can only weigh in about CK from a distant perspective -- the layout was quite impressive -- and that doesn't include the awesome views. But, I am struck by the laudatory praise that Barnbougle Dunes gets and that course has not had the benefit of world wide TV coverage thus far.

Reef:

Interesting comments.

Let me just say this -- some of the long standing members of various rating lists are "set in stone" simply because people assume they will ALWAYS be there -- even when modern day competition from others is equally or even more compelling.

It's tough for magazines to drop the revered names from yesteryear. I remember when Digest dropped Augusta from its top ten a number of years ago -- and then two years later they reinserted Augusta and it was so transparent in its attempt to create controversy from such a quick flip / flop.

Reef, you are right -- so much focus is spent on elements that are touchy feely -- like age, history and mystique. The more telling ingredient is how does the course play TODAY -- not from a 1935 or 1975 perspective.

It's exciting to see the top tier quality layouts that have emerged over the last 20-25 years. No doubt only a few should be heralded as key competitors against the old time classics. But it would be prudent to pay homage to a few of these places and for some of the old time relics to be pushed off the pinnacle of the mountain and replaced by those select fews which really have added a good bit to the evolution of golf course architecture when viewed from a 2008 -- soon to be 2009 -- perspective.

I can't say for sure where CK would end up -- I have not played it -- but it clearly made a major statement with many people on this site and elsewhere.

[Ryan Farrow]

Tom, I will defend Oakmont being a top 10 course...... and its not because it is a hard golf course... after all Cypress is rated where it is and I don't think many people would call that a championship test. Despite its very average western PA setting Oakmont is ranked in the top 10.... What gives? You can't separate the golf course from its setting... but a golf course can stand out from its setting... with a little bit of history......

[Kalen Braley]

Matt,

Why is it such a stretch?  The forum watched both courses over the weekend and they have spoken thier mind.  I much preffered to what I saw at CK over KC as well.

[Matthew Mollica]

Top 10, Top 20, Top 50, does it really matter?

It is easily "A Course You Must Play Before You Die" as Eric suggests.

Couldn't have said it better myself Bill.

MM

[ed_getka]

Kenny,
   I played the course about a year and a half ago on my first trip down to NZ/Australia. I was balking at the price of CK, which was at least twice the cost of Barnbougle, and I was thinking there is NO WAY CK is worth twice as much as Barnbougle. Fortunately, Ash Towe and Philip Gawith convinced me to add CK to the itinerary. I had a fabulous day and really enjoyed the course immensely. I never thought about it as a top ten course, but that is purely a subjective exercise based on what one prefers in architecture.
   I did a long thread describing my thoughts about the course, I will see if I can find it.
   The setting of the course photographs better from off the course than on it IMO.
    I will never forget flying from SFO down to NZ and playing Paraparaumu my first day, which was to be followed by CK the second day. I had a late tee time assuming I would be VERY jet-lagged the second day. I woke up early and went out on the roof-top terrace and there in the distance was the magnificent setting of the course beckoning. I was up at the course 3 hours before my tee time.
    CK has a funky finishing hole. Excellent tee shot into a crowned fairway that sits on a diagonal. However, the approach into the green doesn't seem to differentiate well enough between excellent shots and mediocre ones due to the gathering nature of the green and its setting. I thought #17 would have been a more traditional stout par 4 finisher.

[Tim_Weiman]

Kenny,

Having played Cape Kidnappers, I can't see it making the Top Ten in the World. For starters, I would rate it third among Tom Doak's courses in that part of the world.

Yes, CK is a great place to visit and it is certainly a better golf course than the other "wonder" - Old Head, but to play golf everyday it doesn't compare to St Andrews Beach, in my opinion.

There are many more interesting holes and golf shots at St Andrews Beach.

Barnbougle Dunes comes between the two in my book.

[Chris Kane]

Tim, there are only two Tom Doak golf courses in this part of the world.

[Mark_F]

Tim, there are only two Tom Doak golf courses in this part of the world.

There's three. It still exists, it's easier to get onto than Ellerston, and it will never be a veggie farm. 

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