[Kenny Baer]

I wanted to pose a question to those out there who saw the made for TV deal at Cape Kidnappers or have actually had the privelage to play the course.

From what I saw on TV it is in my top 5 places I have to see before I die; it looks like one of the best courses in the world.

Although the other course (Kauri) looked like an awesome place to visit, Cape Kidnappers looked like something that is truly world class golf in a world class setting; maybe the most beautiful place on earth....at least an argument could be made.

The firm and fast conditions, amazing holes along the "finger cliffs", the strategic interest of the holes, plus the greens that looked like they had tons of charchter (tough to see on TV, but it looked that way).  #14 to me looked like one of the best holes in the world.

How good is the course?  Is it world top 10 if yes then great, if no then why?  What makes ANGC or PV or even Pac Dunes, or Merion a better golf course than that?  I just would like to hear opinions on it.

I am just judging by TV and have never played it or even been within a 12 hr flight of it. IMO it looked incredible in every way (Setting and Golf Course).

Where would you rank it compared with other greats?

[Kenny Baer]

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[Eric Smith]

Kenny,

After having watched day 2 of the Kiwi Challenge earlier today on dvd (Thanks JM), I have to agree with you re: top 5 golf courses you want to see before you die.

I haven't been able to get Cape Kidnappers off of my mind all day, especially hole #14 and that awesome little bunker there at the green.

A truly breathtaking panorama there for sure, and likely television doesn't even come close to revealing its full spendor.

[Chris Kane]

By all accounts it is insanely spectacular.  I am yet to hear of anyone who rates it that highly though.

[David_Elvins]

FWIW, most people I know who have played both rate it below Barnbougle Dunes. 

But then again Barnbougle Dunes is world top 10 IMO.

[Kenny Baer]

I agree but I wonder why not; I am just curious more than I have an opinion being that I have only seen it on TV.

The use of the land for strategic purposes came across as absolutely world class on TV, add that to maybe the best setting in the world and how could something.....like say.......Pinehurst, Merion, Winged Foot, be considered a better golf course that Cape Kid: my question is why; they seemed to be universally considered better courses.

I would love someone who has played say Pine Valley explain why they think PV is better than CK; or any top 10 course for that matter.  I personally would just love to hear an educated persons reasons why; I am not in the slightest bit being condensending. I am literally just curious.

[Tom Huckaby]

Not sure if I qualify as an educated person... and I too have only seen Cape Kidnappers in pictures.

However, my answer would be this:

Look at the world's top 10 - here's a decent list - 2007 version compiled by Golf Magazine (US):

Pine Valley
Cypress Point
St. Andrews Old
Augusta National
Pebble Beach
Shinnecock Hills
Royal County Down
Murfield
Oakmont
Merion (East)

Might not the answer be that those courses are just so absurdly great, that as fantastic as Cape Kidnappers might be, it simply doesn't measure up?  That this is an insanely high standard to expect any course to aspire to?  I mean look at those which do NOT make the top 10... #s 10-20....

Sand Hills
Royal Portrush (Dunluce)
Pacific Dunes
Ballybunion (Old)
Royal Melbourne (West)
NGLA
Pinehurst #2
Royal Dornoch
Turnberry Ailsa
Seminole

Those are some VERY heavy-hitting names.

My apologies I guess, but this is reason does seem simple and obvious to me:  rather than asking why CK is NOT in the Top 10, it makes more sense to me to give reasons why it SHOULD be.  And looking from afar, well... I guess I could be persuaded, but keep in mind that whatever courses it displaces are absurdly great.

TH

[Kenny Baer]

I haven't played any of those so this could sound dumb...

Oakmont vs. Cape Kid

Personally I would rather play Cape Kidnappers anyday.

Is Oakmont a great golf course, yes, does it have interesting green complexes and tremendous history, yes, with the tree removal is it spectacular..yes.  Would you rather play there or on 600 ft cliffs jutting into the abyss with equal arch. interest, I would rather play on the 600 ft cliffs.  Oakmont is awesome but is the strategic interest of the golf course any better than Cape Kid?  From what I have seen of both, I would say no; those being equal then w/o question Cape Kid has superior setting; (my apologies to those who are big fans of the PA Turnpike).  A hole by hole comparison IMO CK wins 3 & 1.  The only thing Oakmont has going for it that CK does not is tradition and history; which has nothing to do with the course itself. 

Pebble.....same thing; Pebble has 5-6 just regular solid golf holes that you could find on thousands of courses across the world.  There is not 1 hole at CK that is just like those at other courses....at least on the back nine.  (Never saw the front)

[Tom Huckaby]

Kenny:

Fair enough, sounds to me like this is a done deal already and you will not be convinced.  I know I certainly won't attempt to do so, if you believe Pebble Beach has 5-6 holes that you could find at thousands of golf courses across the world, and that tradition and history play no role in this, and when you seem the equate uniqueness with greatness.

So yes, Cape Kidnappers belongs in your world top 10.  As it should and there is nothing at all wrong with stating it.  We all have our own standards and what we value.

TH

[Bill Brightly]

Top 10, Top 20, Top 50, does it really matter?

It is easily "A Course You Must Play Before You Die" as Eric suggests. I'm just thankful the list is long.

[tlavin]

Not sure if I qualify as an educated person... and I too have only seen Cape Kidnappers in pictures.

However, my answer would be this:

Look at the world's top 10 - here's a decent list - 2007 version compiled by Golf Magazine (US):

Pine Valley
Cypress Point
St. Andrews Old
Augusta National
Pebble Beach
Shinnecock Hills
Royal County Down
Murfield
Oakmont
Merion (East)

Might not the answer be that those courses are just so absurdly great, that as fantastic as Cape Kidnappers might be, it simply doesn't measure up?  That this is an insanely high standard to expect any course to aspire to?  I mean look at those which do NOT make the top 10... #s 10-20....

Sand Hills
Royal Portrush (Dunluce)
Pacific Dunes
Ballybunion (Old)
Royal Melbourne (West)
NGLA
Pinehurst #2
Royal Dornoch
Turnberry Ailsa
Seminole

Those are some VERY heavy-hitting names.

My apologies I guess, but this is reason does seem simple and obvious to me:  rather than asking why CK is NOT in the Top 10, it makes more sense to me to give reasons why it SHOULD be.  And looking from afar, well... I guess I could be persuaded, but keep in mind that whatever courses it displaces are absurdly great.

TH

The Huck's no schmuck; he has it right.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Now Terry, I may be right this time, but of course I can't escape being a schmuck.

 

Seriously though, I really do just put this down to high standards.  But then again it all depends on what one does value, and for what Kenny does seem to value, it seems logical to me that CK could be top 10.  Heck, I love views myself - ask Mucci - and no Doak course ever lacks for fun shots to be played and interesting greens - so hell it may well crack my top 10 too.  I just do have a hard hard time getting courses into that rarefied air.

TH

[Adam Clayman]

KB, You better be a bit more judicious in throwing out that kind of honor, or, be prepared for an onslaught of negativity headed your way. Firstly, you're basing this on a one time TV viewing and you didn't see the front nine. It should be easy to see how vulnerable you will be to those who would question your conclusion. Now, it is possible there are 25 million top ten courses in the world. So you've got that going for you.

Guys, you are all forgetting Lakota Canyon.

[Philippe Binette]

For most players, outside the architecture world, they would prefer to play a course like Cape Kidnappers before Muirfield and Merion no matter how outstanding the design is on both those places...

I've never seen it but I would think Cape Kidnappers gets your heart pumping on multiple occasions

[David_Elvins]

I haven't played any of those so this could sound dumb...

Oakmont vs. Cape Kid

Personally I would rather play Cape Kidnappers anyday.

Is Oakmont a great golf course, yes, does it have interesting green complexes and tremendous history, yes, with the tree removal is it spectacular..yes.  Would you rather play there or on 600 ft cliffs jutting into the abyss with equal arch. interest, I would rather play on the 600 ft cliffs.  Oakmont is awesome but is the strategic interest of the golf course any better than Cape Kid?  From what I have seen of both, I would say no; those being equal then w/o question Cape Kid has superior setting; (my apologies to those who are big fans of the PA Turnpike).  A hole by hole comparison IMO CK wins 3 & 1.  The only thing Oakmont has going for it that CK does not is tradition and history; which has nothing to do with the course itself. 

Pebble.....same thing; Pebble has 5-6 just regular solid golf holes that you could find on thousands of courses across the world.  There is not 1 hole at CK that is just like those at other courses....at least on the back nine.  (Never saw the front)

Yes that probably does sound dumb.  One thing that Cape Kidnappers had going for it is uniqueness.  All the world's top 10 or potential top 10 courses seperate themselves from others in the top 10 with their unique characteristics.  THe other thing CK has going for it is populist appeal.  Some people dont get Merion, Royal Melbourne etc.  There is no chance of somone not getting something from Cape Kidnappers

[Kenny Baer]

I understand totally what you are saying and the truth is I just need to play them.  On TV it looks incredible; I might play it and think its hogwash so who knows.  

I just wondered what someone who has played many of the Top 100 would say as to why one of the greats is better, I really have no opinion and don't neccessarily want to say that CK is better than Pebble.  I have played neither so that would be stupid; I wanted to hear why someone who has played both, or is at least has played one and is very informed about the other had to say as to why he preferred one over the other.

[Tom Huckaby]

These are all good arguments for why CK may very reasonably be considered "great."

But what would make it vault to the rareified air of world top 10?

That's what I'm struggling with here.

And Kenny, I didn't mean to lambaste you, my apologies.  I haven't played CK, to me this was just simple logic.  Hell as I say maybe it does qualify.  One good thing is this:  the universe of people who have played CK and PB (or any other top 10 course) has to be pretty darn small - but of that universe, a large percentage likely participate here, so hopefully you will eventually get a detailed substantive answer.

TH

ps - good one, Adam!

[Sean Leary]

For those who have played it, is there similarity in the holes that are on the fingers that jut into the Ocean?

I wonder if an event was held at Old Head on TV whether people would be as gaga.  I do wish Doak had gotten the Old Head gig because I think it would have been better.

Old Head is the most spectacular place I have ever been.  Merion is the course I would most like to play every day, and is a vastly superior golf course. If I could blink my eyes and be immediately on the 1st tee of either right now, I would pick Old Head. Doesn't mean it is a better golf course.

[Anthony Gray]

  No top 10 because as Tom Doak said on TV it is a resort course. The others in the top 10 are not.

  Now you could make it more difficult of the tee and around the green then it would move up.


  It is just too easy for the premier player.


               Anthony

[Sean Leary]

 
  It is just too easy for the premier player.


               Anthony

So is Cypress Point.

[Adam Clayman]

  No top 10 because as Tom Doak said on TV it is a resort course. The others in the top 10 are not.

  Now you could make it more difficult of the tee and around the green then it would move up.


  It is just too easy for the premier player.


               Anthony

Now this has to be one of the worst reasons ever. Difficulty? Ha!

[Anthony Gray]

  In the top 10 list. I see no resort courses.

   Anthony

[Joe Bausch]

I know this:  it was the best displayed course on HDTV I've ever seen.  Well, maybe 2nd best.  Augusta National's HD coverage on CBS sets the standard for a high-def sports broadcast in terms of video. 

[Anthony Gray]

 
  It is just too easy for the premier player.


               Anthony

So is Cypress Point.

   Then why is it in the top 10?

  Anthony

[Kenny Baer]

I feel like all you think, I think, that Cape Kid is in the top 10.  I don't know maybe, maybe not I am just wondering why it isn't.  (From rereading I see how ya'll think I think that) I thunk....

But......Anothony,

I was waiting for someone to bring up what Doak said about Resort...(By the way Pebble is a resort course), from his answer I got the feeling he didn't think he thought it was the best in the world but I loved what he did with it; the look of the big fairways that favored playing to certain sides was tremendous, IMO that is what made it what it is compared to something like Old Head.  The greens seemed very tough.

I could definately see CK not being in the top 10 but your reasoning I just can't agree with.  ANGC Super WIDE Fairways, PV SUPER Wide Fairways, SH Wide Fairways, the list goes on and on...in fact the one thing most great courses have in common is wide playing corridors.

To easy for the professional.....HUH.....on a dead calm day with literally no wind, from what I understand it blows 20's mph averages and can get up to 40's.  What did AK and Mahan shoot?  66? If the wind was just blowing regularly a winning score with a top field would be no more than 12 under tops.

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