[Adam Clayman]

Nebraska has Corey Crandel's West Wind has a 460 yd dog left par 4 that is rarely birdied. Downwind is the best chance but for some reason the green is unreadable being built up against the natural flow. Shows how important toughness means.

[Patrick Boyd]

18 at Bandon Trails takes the cake for Oregon.....18 at Pac Dunes can occasionally eat your lunch as well depending on the wind.

I am a Bandon in the winter guy.  18 at PD in winter wind is a beast.

18 at Bandon Trails?  Seriously?  Can't imagine it.  Sorry.  18 at Pac Dunes is much more demanding than 18 at the Trails.

Maybe I was just remembering having to hit persimmon 3 wood with balata from 200 uphill into wind the last time I was out there finishing in the dark...

[Matt OBrien]

If you play the keiser tee on pacific I think its a harder hole but if you play the normal back tee on pacific then I think 18 at trails was a much harder hole.

[Tom Yost]

This one comes to mind perhaps because just recently played it.  Uphill all the way.

[Rob Rigg]

Is 18 at BT or PD tougher than 18 at Pumpkin Ridge - Ghost Creek?

That thing turns into a monster from the back tees because it plays 454+ into the prevailing wind. There is room off the tee, provided you knock your drive through the two talls trees that frame the faiwway on the right and left. There is also a creek on the right side that needs to be avoided. The second is usually a long iron with water hugging the green on the right side so there is no room for error there. You can bail left but it usually leaves an awkward lie because a hill encircles the green on the left side and the rough is thick. The green is two tiered with some subtle movement, especially on the back.

[Lou_Duran]

#18 at Riverside Golf Club, Grand Prairie, TX.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

expand TX, Dallas/Ft Worth; just south of D/FW Airport; #18 is the double green immediately to the west of the clubhouse, with a southwest to south orientation, playing typically into the wind.  Absolutely frightening.

[Doug Wright]

For Colorado I'll start the bidding with a nomination of #18 at Green Valley Ranch.  640 hard yards.  

Scott, sorry you can't start the bidding if someone already opened--see my Post #12. In any case, great minds think alike! 

[JSPayne]

It may not be THE hardest in CA, but it gets my vote.....

The 18th at my current course is a downhill 211 yard par 3. Water in front, water back right, OB left and an easy to find bunker front and center. The tee is elevated at least 50 feet.

This may not seem too bad, but don't knock it until you're having a superb round and you have to stand up on that tee with the wind blowing and just try to make a par to not ruin your day.

On a similar note, I stood up there for 3 hours during a charity event trying to raise money in a "Beat the Super" closest to the pin....1/2 the guys playing were seniors and 1/2 of them didn't even want to try because....and I quote, "I've never even made it over the water on this hole." From the WHITE tees. One older gentleman LAID UP with a PW to the ladies tee 30 feet below then hit another PW to the green.

Just because it's not a 500+ yard par 4 doesn't mean it's not enough to gets your knees knocking as your last tee shot of the day!

BTW.....this is an old picture from course opening....the lake in front is filled with tall cattails now and the trees on the right are 30 ft tall.....the elevation is not represented well.

[Gib_Papazian]

NO NO NO!

The most difficult finisher in California is the 18th hole at Bodega Harbour Golf Links. 461 yards off a terrace tee to an island fairway that rises up from the Pacific Ocean like Devil's Postpile. Now, into the teeth of a misty gale blowing seagull shit at full throttle, you are faced with a blind approach to a narrow island of grass, tucked against a sandy berm along the water with only the mirage of Japan in the distance to line up your futile attempt to avoid a snowman or worse.

It is a hateful, mean-spirited, cold Nazi boot to already sore testicles, making sure that even if you have somehow run the gauntlet and have a lone pellet left in your bag, the bludgeon of death is patiently waiting to make sure the drive home is one of humiliated humility.

How anyone can compare #18 at Bodega to Donald Trumps exercise in self-aggrandizing pomposity astounds me. To add poor taste - as if that is possible with New York's biggest blowhard-on - the sign at the 18th tee crowing about how many millions were expended (read: wasted) to build that pile of excrement is enough to make a dog vomit.

Thank gawd my shattered sensibilities were put back in good order with a triple margarita served by the single most frighteningly beautiful woman in Western Civilization. I'll say one thing about The Donald, he understands the importance of eye-candy. I just wish his golf courses had more than a token I.Q.

It occurs to me that #18 at Riviera belongs somewhere in the discussion - but that might be more a function of the 10 degree apex of my drives these days. I might as well be trying to hit the ball over the face of Half Dome as get over that ridge and up the fairway. From there, the hanging lie with a fairway wood to a small target surrounded by Kikuyu grass makes five a great score for an Armenian.

#18 at Bodega still wins though - at least at Riviera I can find my ball . . . .     

   

   

[Scott Sander]

For Colorado I'll start the bidding with a nomination of #18 at Green Valley Ranch.  640 hard yards.  

Scott, sorry you can't start the bidding if someone already opened--see my Post #12. In any case, great minds think alike! 

Wow.  Not sure how I missed that!

[Looks around]

Now where did I put that "embarassed" smiley?  Oh yes... here it is: 


As for others - you mention Murphy Creek.  It's a challenge, but 17 always plays so hard for me that 18 almost feels like a relief.

How about 18 at Saddle Rock?  I'm not sure if that's hard or just poor, but it's a very intimidating finish for such a short hole.

Mariana Butte always wrecked me, too.  You've got to thread your tee shot twixt the bunkers to get the ideal approach - then figure out how hard to hit that elevator ride UP to the green after hitting parachutes DOWN to targets all day.

[Sam Morrow]

#18 at Riverside Golf Club, Grand Prairie, TX.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

expand TX, Dallas/Ft Worth; just south of D/FW Airport; #18 is the double green immediately to the west of the clubhouse, with a southwest to south orientation, playing typically into the wind.  Absolutely frightening.

Good one Lou, I probably wouldn't have thought about that one. I know I will miss some but here are some bears in Texas right off the top of my head.

Riverside (GP)
Redstone Tournament (Humble)
Bear Creek-Masters (Houston)
Wedgewood (Conroe)
Oakhurst (Porter)
High Meadow Ranch (Magnolia)
Pecan Valley (San Antonio)

These are a few that come to mind off the top of my head.

[Tom Yost]

The most difficult finisher in California is the 18th hole at Bodega Harbour Golf Links. 461 yards off a terrace tee to an island fairway that rises up from the Pacific Ocean like Devil's Postpile. Now, into the teeth of a misty gale blowing seagull shit at full throttle, you are faced with a blind approach to a narrow island of grass, tucked against a sandy berm along the water with only the mirage of Japan in the distance to line up your futile attempt to avoid a snowman or worse.

It is a hateful, mean-spirited, cold Nazi boot to already sore testicles, making sure that even if you have somehow run the gauntlet and have a lone pellet left in your bag, the bludgeon of death is patiently waiting to make sure the drive home is one of humiliated humility.

Gib - thanks for the morning LOL.
Herbert Warren Wind could not have written it more eloquently! 

[John Nixon]

Central Indiana nominees:

Fun/hard
Bear Slide - par 4 - elevated tee looks down on a tree-lined fairway that all but demands a loong fade to leave you an uphill second over a diagonal hazard creek to a flat green set into a huge punchbowl.  It's all about the drive - too far left or right and you're blocked out.

Over-the-top/hard
Coffin - Wonderful layout ruined by a completely ridiculous tee shot on 18.  There is virtually no way to play the back tees unless you have a tight 240 yard draw in your bag.

Where-the-heck-did-that-come-from/hard
#18 at an early Dye called Sahm is completely, wonderfully out of scale with the rest of the course.  It is a long, brawny uphill beast to a huge (for the course) green.  It seems like something from one of his ballyhooed courses - but Sahm is a $17 muni on a somewhat cramped piece of property.

Exhausting/hard
Kampen - #1 Handicap hole on what's probably the hardest public track in the state.  At this point in the round you are bushed from the battering Kampen delights in delivering.  Then you face a looong par 4 with bunkering up the entire left side and final 100 yards of the right side.  And the greenside bunkering is close to cruel.  Honestly it's not a "hard" bogey... but a birdie is nigh on impossible.

Gimmicky/hard
#18 on the Black Bart course at Woodland Bowl is a skeeball game.  You cannot imagine how difficult it is to putt a pink ball with a rubber-headed putter into the center hole of a skeeball ramp.  What a joke.

I'll go with Bear Slide over Coffin, narrowly. The tee shot at Coffin cetainly clenches the cheeks more dramatically than Bear Slide (you forgot to mention the White River running the length of the hole down the left), but once you're safely through the hole is not that tough. With Bear Slide, even if you've hit the tee shot both long and straight you're facing a much tougher approach than Coffin.

18 at Bear Slide, from the green looking back


18 at Coffin, from the green looking back


Not a great pic, but it's what I can find. That narrow, narrow gap waaaay back there is where the tee shot needs to fit.

[Tom Huckaby]

Thanks, Gib - I think your nomination takes the prize so far for CA - and THAT is what I was looking for earlier - awful, bitchly, ball-busting holes.  I knew there had to be more than what we had suggested previously.

To that end, JSP's long par three finisher is a damn good suggestion also!  JSP - what course is that?

TH

[John Moore II]

So I have tried to think of what I consider to be the toughest finisher in NC would be. But I just can't come up with a closing hole that I consider to be exceptionally difficult. Pinehurst #2 and Pine Needles have real good closers, but not that difficult. Tobacco Road is not hard really. Tanglewood (Championship) may qualify with the 18 being about 440 and playing sharply uphill to the green (and if you play the course in the loop like they played the Sr. Tour event, the normal 17th would be a real backbreaker of a finisher, long par 5, 580 I think, with about 20 bunkers)

But I really can't think of a finisher in this state that I consider to be a very hard hole.

[Phil McDade]

In Wisconsin, probably Blackwolf Run's 18th at the River Course.

I hesitate to bring up the 18th at Whistling Straits -- it's a hard hole, but several posters have described it as silly, unfair, and not very well designed, among other attributes.

I would have thought the final at the River was easier than the Meadow Valleys, and both significantly easier than the awful 18th at the Straits.

Regarding New Mexico, ironically most of the 18th holes on the better public courses aren't that tough. Black Mesa's is a shortish par four that's one of the easier holes to birdie to me, UNM has a short par five, Cochiti a par five, Paa-Ko's finisher is tough but not unreasonably so. Given all that--I'd go with Twin Warriors. Its the long, tough, prototype finisher of a par four.

Andy:

I've always thought the 18th at the River is tougher than the 18th at MV. I actually like the MV 18th better as a hole, aesthetically and in terms of giving the lesser golfer a few options, but I think the 18th at River is really tough -- the junk/water runs alongside the entire left side of the hole, from tee to green, and it never leaves your thoughts (or view, really). It also plays 11 yards longer from the tips, and the MV 18th if I recall correctly plays slightly shorter than its listed yardage because it has an elevated tee. And the tee shot at River is a really pucker-er -- you really have to thread it between that big trap right and the junk left. Plus I think the MV 18th green is more accomating of a longer iron/wood on the approach than River -- the 18th green at MV is one big green.

[TX Golf]

While I agree that Bodega Harbor is an absolute BRUTE.... has anyone mentioned Riviera??? I have never had the chance to play it but it seems to give the guys on tour a fit... It is 475 yards straight up that hill with a little dog leg and tough green. Just a thought.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Robert,

Riviera is private.


Gib,

Good to hear from you, as always.

[Joe Bausch]

I'll bet none of my PA residents would throw this one out there, but after thinking of the many public courses I've played here, I'll say the 18th at my home course General Washington (now known as The Club at Shannondell).  It is a par 4 where the drive is through a chute of trees and at the landing area it bends left.  But that landing area tilts to the right, making it hard to keep a ball in the fairway.  If you just play an iron off the tee to land in a flatter area, you're left with 200+ over water to the green.  If you can work a 3-wood or driver pretty hard left off the tee, you can be left with just 150 in, but only a very skilled player can pull off that shot.

[TX Golf]

Woops... I guess I completely forgot about the whole "Public" part of the title.

[Adam Clayman]

The 18th on the valley nine at BWR is the original closer. The Rivers current finisher was the original ninth. Sans that horrible addition of the water left side. It use to be rough grass and was a recoverable feature. This example should teach some of the difference between quality and difficulty.

[John Moore II]

Hey, I know there are some NC guys on here. Does anyone else want to chime in as to what finisher might be the toughest in NC? I just really can't come up with one that I think is a great deal harder than any other.

[JSPayne]

To that end, JSP's long par three finisher is a damn good suggestion also!  JSP - what course is that?

TH

My current home away from home (read: the course I take care of and sometimes loose sleep over ) Empire Ranch GC in Folsom, CA. Opened in 2002, designed by Brad Bell (see also: Turkey Creek, Teal Bend, Apple Mountain, Coyote Moon, etc.), local archie done good.

Let me know if you're ever in the vicinity and want a tour......or a playing partner. Seems like I'm always here......

EDIT: It do well to note however, that this hole may be the most entertaining of the round, as many of the locals use the snaking S-curve asphalt cartpath to the bottom of the hill as diversion from a wait on the tee. Almost every other group has a bet or some small competition to see who's ball can stay within the confines of the path's curbing without bouncing out.......farthest one down the hill wins! Loser buys beers at the grill. 

[Scott Weersing]

While I now live in Virginia, and I can't forget the 18th at La Purisima GC in Lompoc, CA (Note: Ryan Simper dislikes this course). It is a tough finishing hole for just 387 yards from the blue tees.

It plays into the wind. The best angle is from the left hand side of the fairway but there are two bunkers on that side. So you hit your drive to the middle of the fairway. You are now viewing the green from 170 yards or so. But there is a large euclyptus tree about 60 yards short of the green that you have to have to hit around or over.  There is a dry creek about 40 yards in front of the green. You can find your ball but it is not an easy chip from the sandy bottom. The green is wild.

[mike_malone]

  For Pa. I see either Paxon Hollow or Glen Mills as contenders.

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