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Mike Mosely

Re: mildly OT: A question about Herbert Warren Wind
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2008, 07:53:30 PM »
Yeah, I waas wondering how he got two B.A.s as well.  Are they different in England?

Sean, great legwork, ed nice to see you and thanks for your help?

Sean_A

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Re: mildly OT: A question about Herbert Warren Wind
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2008, 05:02:12 AM »
Wow, Sean.  If that's true, that's an important historical discovery.

By the way, what is a "tripos exam?"  What do you mean when you say "membership of the senate?"  I can't believe you guys post the results of people's exams.  Could you imagine if we could just look up people's grades here in the states?

How could he get a B.A. BOTH at Yale AND at Cambridge?  What was his major at Yale?

Mike Mosely, good question, as usual.

Jay

So far as I know, there is nothing to stop people from earning two BAs.  I know a few people that did it.  Why HWW chose to take a 2nd BA rather than an MA English Lit (or whatever) is a question I can't answer. 

Concerning the earning of a blue, I am not sure Cambridge offered blues to golfers (confusingly known as Blues) when HWW attended Cambridge.  It would seem the sport was rather less thought of than in later years.  I know that in Darwin's day a Blue for golf was not on offer.  The following is an excerpt from The World That Made Fred:

"Our position was a very dubious one; I think we called ourselves 'half blues', but that status was not generally conceded, and I question whether Cambridge as a whole knew of our existence.  Some years before, the golf club had demanded a blue and had been contumeliously and, I think, not unreasonably refused it.  It had thereupon followed the historic example of the football players and taken it.  At least some of the players wore light blue caps with silver crossed clubs, which might at a distance have been mistaken for crossed oars... I had such a cap, I have it now; I went so far as to hang it on the corner of the photograph of the team, but none of us were ever seen wearing it in public.  We took it out in red jackets with the light blue collars and the loveliest coat of arms blazing on the pocket.  Oxford was still more modest or more sophisticated than we were: some of them did not even wear red coats."

Jay

The Tripos is only a way dividing course work.  It depends on which subject studied as to how they are divided within the Tripos, but essentially, it works a 3 unit system in which all units must be passed to earn the BA.  In a way, its a sort of compromise between the traditional American system of taking mid terms and finals for each course (plus course work of papers or labs) and the often used system in Britain where there may be only a final exam at the end of the course work (a lot of pressure!). 

I don't think whether or not HWW's degree is an earned one or a status one makes any difference.  The university awards the degree and people can either accept as a post graduate degree (though this was never the intention) or not.  HWW was a great writer and servant to the game regardless of his educational status which in any case is very impressive.   

The Senate used to more or less run the university and elect MPs.  To become a senior member, (ie being awarded an MA three years after graduation) meant to be a Member of the Senate.  Of course, nowadays, membership of the Senate is largely ceremonial as Regent House is in charge and in fact, Senate House is now used mainly for graduation ceremonies etc. 

Please don't ask me how I know this nonsense - its a long story and one which contains perhaps my only real regret in life. 

Happy Thanksgiving.

Ciao 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 05:11:43 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Jay Flemma

Re: mildly OT: A question about Herbert Warren Wind
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2008, 09:08:13 AM »
Sean, thanks for all that.  It's and good explanation and it's good to understand how the system works over there. 

So then the Question is, can you find out what courses HWW took at Cambridge?


ChipOat

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: mildly OT: A question about Herbert Warren Wind
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2008, 10:20:01 AM »
Herb didn't play against Oxford (so no blue) and he never played in the President's Putter although he could have done so as he was a member of the Oxford & Cambridge Golfing Society.

The fellow who knew Herb best is Robert Macdonald, the publisher of The Classics of Golf.

Jay Flemma

Re: mildly OT: A question about Herbert Warren Wind
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2008, 12:39:16 PM »
out of curiosity, has anyone found out what classes he took.

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 4
Re: mildly OT: A question about Herbert Warren Wind
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2008, 06:14:55 PM »
Herb didn't play against Oxford (so no blue) and he never played in the President's Putter although he could have done so as he was a member of the Oxford & Cambridge Golfing Society.

The fellow who knew Herb best is Robert Macdonald, the publisher of The Classics of Golf.

As membership of the OCGS is usually reserved for those who earned a blue, it would be interesting to know how HWW became a member - assuming he never won a blue (which I strongly suspect is true).   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

ChipOat

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: mildly OT: A question about Herbert Warren Wind
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2008, 11:02:46 PM »
Sean,

Herb was invited to play with the O&CGS whenever they came to the U.S. so I just assumed that meant he was a member.  Perhaps not.  Or perhaps he was an honorary member.

I'm afraid it's too late to ask Herb directly so it will have to be researched one way or the other.

Mike Mosely

Re: mildly OT: A question about Herbert Warren Wind
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2008, 11:12:17 PM »
out of curiosity, has anyone found out what classes he took.

Yeah, I am surprised hom much we can learn about his days there as well..  great research guys, and thanks.

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 4
Re: mildly OT: A question about Herbert Warren Wind
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2008, 06:59:26 PM »
I have come across a little blurb about the 1938 Walker Cup Match at St Andrews.  HWW went up to spectate with a certain PJA (the author of the blurb) and was most impressed with the American side and couldn't believe they lost.  On the trip back HWW told his companion about Yale and he apparently thought the course was crazy as its designer "was mad, in fact he was put under lock and key a year after he designed it."  Stranger (and even more imaginary) still, the writer claims to have "met a man named Mackenzie who is probably the most famous course designer in the world" on the ferry over the Forth.  In talking to the man HWW mentioned his sentiments concerning Yale and Mackenzie said, "Oh yes, my brother designed that course."

I think this sort of thing shows that we must take all old writings with a pinch of salt because it can be very difficult to know who the audience is or what the original intention of the piece was. 

Another interesting tid bit.  HWW played in one match against the Old Cheltonians at Mildenhall in the spring of 1938.  HWW sealed his foursomes win with a 250 yard brassie shot at the 16th, finishing 1 yard from the hole. 

I have also come across some funny writings of HWW poking fun at the English/American differences etc.  He apparently wrote a column for the college magazine/newsletter titled The Correspondence of Fred Ralston (An American at Cambridge and Jesus). 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

ed_getka

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: mildly OT: A question about Herbert Warren Wind
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2008, 08:42:53 AM »
Sean,
   I would be very interested in obtaining a copy of the funny HWW you mention in the last paragraph. Where can I find that material?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Jay Flemma

Re: mildly OT: A question about Herbert Warren Wind
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2008, 12:58:03 PM »
I'd like to see it too.  Thanks Sean.

Brad Klein

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: mildly OT: A question about Herbert Warren Wind
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2009, 09:24:27 PM »
Just spent another day in the HWW archive pouring through his papers for a project I'm working on. He had some interesting things to say about his education at Jesus College, Cambridge. In the spring of 1938 he wrote a long, rambling piece for the "Brockton Daily Evening Enterprise" newspaper, called "Life at Cambridge University Described by Brockton Boy." There he describes his days at school, his friends, and talks a lot about drinking coffee, intramural sports (rugby), listening to music, seeing movies (HWW saw every movie ever made, it seems, and wrote about it for years), and two of the courses he took, "Theoretical Criticism from Aristotle to Johnston" (Prof. Lucas) and "The English Moralists" (Prof. Willey).

Nary a word about golf, except a reference to playing at "the Mildenhall course, 22 miles away." No indication of any organized golf, nor a Presidents Putter. Maybe that came in his second year, but I have yet to read of that. And no mention yet of influential professors, mentors or Bernard Darwin.

Interestingly, when he returned from Cambridge and came back to Brockton in 1939, he was basically without work and despaired of ever finding himself. He landed a weekly column in the Brockton paper called "The Light Arts" that could not have paid much but was fascinating for its two-year run, 850-1,100 words each, in which he ranges all over the place like an intellectual gadfly social critic, movie and book reviewer, music writer, sports commentator. Column first ran Oct. 5, 1939 and included a long-trip to South America in 1941 where he wrote a travelogue from Argentina and Brazil that subsequently formed the basis of his first (unpublished) book. That's also when he published his first piece in "The New Yorker," a small poem-like item in May 3, 1941 that winds up (surprise!) being about golf.  
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 09:26:22 PM by Brad Klein »

Bill_McBride

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: mildly OT: A question about Herbert Warren Wind
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2009, 09:51:42 PM »
Mike Mosely:

If someone on this website, without blatant speculation, knows the answers to your questions, then this website truly is an impressive resource!

One time I gave a copy of my GMGC design evolution to Betty Jamieson, LPGA Hall of Famer and two time US Open winner; she liked it so much she sent it to her old friend Herbert Warren Wind who sent her a copy of one of his books with a note to give it to me and to call him. What an idiot I am---I never did.  :'(

Tom - my dad loved the Hornblower books that C. S. Forester wrote.   Late in life Forester lived in Berkeley CA, my dad in San Francisco.  Dad always said he wanted to call up Forester and try to go over and visit.  He never did.  Forester died.  Sad tale, like yours.