mildly OT: A question about Herbert Warren Wind

[Mike Mosely]

I read recently that HWW got a Masters degree from cambridge in literature.

I just have a question or two about that:

A masters from cambridge in literature is not what they call in the industry a "terminal degree," meaning - that as opposed to an MFA - he would have been able to go for a PhD if he wanted.

Also, if I read the cambridge university site correctly, the degree he would have gotten would have required him to write an ACADEMIC thesis, not a creative one, as they do in American MFA programs.

Does anyone have more info on this?  What did Wind study exactly and was it creative or academic?  Why didn't he go for the PhD?

[TEPaul]

Mike Mosely:

If someone on this website, without blatant speculation, knows the answers to your questions, then this website truly is an impressive resource!

One time I gave a copy of my GMGC design evolution to Betty Jamieson, LPGA Hall of Famer and two time US Open winner; she liked it so much she sent it to her old friend Herbert Warren Wind who sent her a copy of one of his books with a note to give it to me and to call him. What an idiot I am---I never did. 

[Mike Mosely]

GMGC?

Not goldsboro municipal...

[TEPaul]

Mike:

GMGC is anything you want it to be.

[Mike Mosely]

Thanks for the help!

Seriously, I want to learn.  What does it stand for, some course in Philly I presume?

[Mike Mosely]

Never mind!  Gulph Mills!  I should have guessed.

Us Bostonians don't get out that often:)  (well technically Salem )

[Rich Goodale]

Mike

I think that just about everybody at Cambridge gets an MA (or Msc) degree.  It's what you get from doing your undergraduate study at the older Universities in Britain (i.e. Oxford, Cambridge, St. Andrews, Glasgow, etc.).  I suspect that everybody who graduates will have had to do some sort of "academic" thesis, but I'm sure there others on here who will know much more than I do about this.

Rich

[James Bennett]

Ed Getka might know.  Where are you Ed?

James B

[Sean_A]

Mike

I think that just about everybody at Cambridge gets an MA (or Msc) degree.  It's what you get from doing your undergraduate study at the older Universities in Britain (i.e. Oxford, Cambridge, St. Andrews, Glasgow, etc.).  I suspect that everybody who graduates will have had to do some sort of "academic" thesis, but I'm sure there others on here who will know much more than I do about this.

Rich

Its all very confusing though Rich is essentially correct. 

Oxbridge feel they are so superior that they award an MA to essentially BA candidates (3 year program) three or four years after graduation.  However, specified degrees such as Master of Philosophy must be earned with further course/thesis work.  Its interesting that the wait period for conferring the MA is 3-4 years because these universities required 7 years of study back in the day of Trivium and Quadrivium.  Incidentally, Trinity operates the same way.  In fact, in the old days, an MA earned at any of the three universities automatically conferred the right to claim MA at the other two.  I still think this is true today so long as teh student is enrolled in some sort of program or teaches at the uni.  Gosh, I think Cambridge automatically confers an MA on those studying at Cambridge with degrees from other unis once they are a certain age - something like 27 - I am not sure of the age.  Its all pretty bizarre stuff.   

If I am not mistaken Edinburgh etc award an MA after a 4 year program and perhaps to only the top students or what would be called a First in England.  I think science degrees are still a BSc - probably due to ancient reasons before there was such a thing as BSc. 

That is the end of my useless trivia acquired along the path of life.

HW-W would not have been one of these miracle degree earners as he enrolled in a Masters program after undergrad.  I do believe that Cambridge has students enrolled simultaneously as Masters and PHd candidates (assuming one didn't earn his MA at another uni), but I don't think an MA is awarded for those "drop outs" from the PHd program. 

Here is what I do know from looking into this matter previously.  HW-W attended Jesus College for two years, 1937-39.  Being enrolled for two years is quite unusual for a Masters candidate and it is quite possible he never took a degree - I can't remember.  I will look back into my "records" and see if I can find out what the score was.  Its been a long time and I may have chucked all the stuff in my overseas move, but it is possible I can find out more even if teh stuff is lost.

Ciao

[Mike Mosely]

Guys, thanks for the info.  I'm curious to find out more about HWW and his path.  Sean please let me know what you find and yes, please ed, chime in.

[Sean_A]

Mike

I haven't gotten to the bottom of the Wind story yet.  It would seem he achieved one of the miracle MAs by earning a BA at Cambridge.  I am not sure how this was accomplished because to date, I can only find that he attended Cambridge from 1937-39 (two years), eventually earning the miracle MA in 1946.  The timiing seems all askew.  It also isn't clear if Wind wrote a Masters thesis as I explained on an earlier post, Cambridge, Oxford and Trinity award the MA after earning a BA as a symbol of status within the university essentially conferring membership of the University Senate - which traditionally gave certain rights to the person and have these days been severely curtailed. 

Ciao 

[Mike Mosely]

Thanks Sean, but I'm a but confused.  Did I read it wrong?  In one post you said there was no way he got a miracle degree, but then later it seems that might have happened.

Now BK's article says it was a masters degree.  (It doesn't say what the specific degree was, for instance M. Phil), nor does it say what it was in. 

Thanks for looking into it.  PLease let me know what you, or anyone else find.

[Sean_A]

Thanks Sean, but I'm a but confused.  Did I read it wrong?  In one post you said there was no way he got a miracle degree, but then later it seems that might have happened.

Now BK's article says it was a masters degree.  (It doesn't say what the specific degree was, for instance M. Phil), nor does it say what it was in. 

Thanks for looking into it.  PLease let me know what you, or anyone else find.

Mike

I am very surprised that HWW received a second BA for two reasons.  It looks like he was only at Cambridge for two years.  Also, why get a BA in three (or two?) years when an MA English Lit takes one year?  A question I have no answer for.  In any case, it looks like HWW received an MA, but not in any subject.  Some folks recognize it and some don't. 

I have been trying to find out when and where HWW played for Cambridge and if he earned a Blue.  Consequently, if he ever played in the Presidents Putter.  If anybody has info on this I would appreciate it.

Ciao

[David Stamm]

Ed Getka might know.  Where are you Ed?

James B

A valid question, James. I have wondered where he has been. And before anyone says it, I know he recently moved to NC.

[Mike Mosely]

Thanks Sean, but I'm a but confused.  Did I read it wrong?  In one post you said there was no way he got a miracle degree, but then later it seems that might have happened.

Now BK's article says it was a masters degree.  (It doesn't say what the specific degree was, for instance M. Phil), nor does it say what it was in. 

Thanks for looking into it.  PLease let me know what you, or anyone else find.

Mike

I am very surprised that HWW received a second BA for two reasons.  It looks like he was only at Cambridge for two years.  Also, why get a BA in three (or two?) years when an MA English Lit takes one year?  A question I have no answer for.  In any case, it looks like HWW received an MA, but not in any subject.  Some folks recognize it and some don't. 

I have been trying to find out when and where HWW played for Cambridge and if he earned a Blue.  Consequently, if he ever played in the Presidents Putter.  if anybodu ahs info on this I would appreciate it.

Ciao

What does it mean to "earn a blue?"  Do you mean earn a "letter" as in varsity letter?

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

Regarding Wind, in his article on the Putter there is no hint of him ever having played in it.  However, if you find out idfferently, let us know.

Rich

[Chris Kane]

Most of my friends at St Andrews were doing an MA or MSc, with Honours, a four year undergrad program.  A couple of friends at Edinburgh were doing the same.

Not so sure about Oxbridge - I think the Oxford Law degree is a BA (Philip Gawith can confirm).

[Sean_A]

Most of my friends at St Andrews were doing an MA or MSc, with Honours, a four year undergrad program.  A couple of friends at Edinburgh were doing the same.

Chris

That makes absolute sense as in Scotland the 4 year MA is a degree of accomplishment rather than status. 

Mike

As is normally the case with things of Oxbridge, the awarding of a Blue (called so because of school colours and thus gives a right to wear the Blue blazer) can be quite complicated.  There are different levels of Blue depending on how important (popular?) the sport in question is deemed.  So, it is possible to earn a half Blue, lets say if you compete in underwater basket weaving, but for the most part, to be awarded a proper Blue one must at the very minimum compete (suit up and play) against the "other" university in a varsity match/game/meet etc of a sport/game considered a full Blue sport.  I don't know how many of these full Blue sports exist (because many non Blue events take place as well) and I have been to a few Varsity Games (most of the sports for the Varsity Games are played over a two weekend period in February) including this year's down at Oxford - obviously rugby (usually held at Twickenham) and the Boat Race are huge draws and don't take place with the other Varsity Matches.  To put it in American terms, the only match that really counts is against the "other" university.  Sort of like traditional college football grudge matches in which a season can be salvaged just by beating the main rival.  An example might be Michigan V OSU, though nothing can save Michigan's season!  The only difference in this case is that there are only two teams in the race, Cambridge and Oxford and the rivalry crosses all sports. 

The golf Varsity Match takes place maybe a month later and switches between clubs.  Essentially, the golf teams for Oxbridge are well pampered golf societies who get to tour England and sometimes Scotland playing the best courses in matches against a few other big name societies (Wighorns and the Moles are a long time foes) and well heeled clubs. 

Rihc

I have yet to find any account of HWW playing in the Presidents Putter.  In fact, I can't find any info on HWW playing golf matches or if he won a Blue.

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Sean and Chris

The Scottish degree thing is not that simple.  Just about all first University degrees in Scotland are 4-year ones.  Only the oldest Universities (St. Andrews, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, maybe Dundee) give you an MA after the fourth year, and then only if you are studying non-scientific subjects.  If you are studying Physics or Chemical engineering all you get after 4 years is a BSc.  And then there is the difference betgween an "Honours degree and an ordinary one.....

[ed_getka]

If I remember correctly in my conversations with Mr Wind he did not play in the Presidents Putter. I remember talking to him about how he embarked on his golf writing career, and if memory serves he wrote something about golf for his freshman "thesis".
   I wondered if the MA from Cambridge in 1946 had anything to do with his writing "The Story of American Golf", but I just looked in my library and it was published in 1948.
    Brad Klein knew Herb Wind pretty well and would be a good person to check with regarding these questions.

   Sorry to have been incommunicado for so long but moving 3,000 miles to North Carolina has been quite the endeavor. For anyone trying to reach me my email is edgetka@gmail.com and my home # is 919 537-8413. I am a little over an hour north of Pinehurst so if anyone is ever in the area looking for a game please get in touch.

[Tom Huckaby]

HE LIVES!

Funny how many of us saw the question about HWW and immediately thought of you, Ed.

Hope all is well on the "right" side of the country.

TH

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Ed, glad you're a bit nearer to us. Do come and visit. You are MOST welcome.

[James Bennett]

Sorry to have been incommunicado for so long but moving 3,000 miles to North Carolina has been quite the endeavor. For anyone trying to reach me my email is edgetka@gmail.com and my home # is 919 537-8413. I am a little over an hour north of Pinehurst so if anyone is ever in the area looking for a game please get in touch.

Good to 'hear' from you Ed.  I moved two miles and that was bad enough.  I do hope your golfing library travelled well.  Many of my belongings at the previous house have been rendered redundant (ie sold) by a more minimalist and efficient approach by my SWMBO (she who must be obeyed).

James B

[Sean_A]

Mike

The plot thickens.  I have discovered that HWW definitely attended Jesus College Cambridge as an affiliated student in fall of 1937.  Being affiliated allowed him to reduce his residency to two years and HWW took the 2nd part of the tripos exam in 1939, earning a lower second.  His BA was awarded in 1939 with the MA to follow in 1946.  There is no evidence that HWW undertook graduate study so the MA was indeed a status degree conferring membership of the Senate.  This of course means that most of the obits claiming HWW earned a Masters in English Lit are false and more importantly, there is no Masters thesis.

I am still trying to find out if he earned a Blue or played for the scratch team and which fixtures he may have been involved with.  I will leisurely sort through the file and post any interesting tid bits that pop up. 

Ciao

[Jay Flemma]

Wow, Sean.  If that's true, that's an important historical discovery.

By the way, what is a "tripos exam?"  What do you mean when you say "membership of the senate?"  I can't believe you guys post the results of people's exams.  Could you imagine if we could just look up people's grades here in the states?

How could he get a B.A. BOTH at Yale AND at Cambridge?  What was his major at Yale?

Mike Mosely, good question, as usual.