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Bryan Izatt

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Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« on: November 19, 2008, 12:28:43 PM »
After looking at the revised layout for the course and reading the Heeeeere's Donald thread, I wondered why the actual layout of the course proposed by Hawtree didn't elicit more comments and opinions.  If we could ignore the environmental, political and estate development issues for a few moments, and assuming that financing gets in place and the project actually proceeds, what think you of the actual course design? 

The course is laid out north-south aling the coast much like it's southerly next door neighbour, Royal Aberdeen.




One thing that stood out was the routing of holes on the bare sand dome at the northern end of the property.  Building holes there will require lots of stabalization of the sand base but I guess provides limitless opportunities to shape the holes.  Seems likely that there would be the potential for the surrounding dome to migrate onto the holes in any kind of significant wind storm.

The one hole that immediately struck me was the 10th, a 581 yard par 5.  The hole description is as follows:

Quote

and not just because of the "impressionable green side dune in its "iconic oddity".  Rather why Hawtree decided to use the natural wetland to create a split fairway hole.  There appears to be no particular reward for attempting the right hand route.  In fact it looks marginally longer and not particularly wider.  The hole does appear to fit wonderfully into the natural features of the land.




 



Anthony Gray

Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2008, 12:41:05 PM »

  No. 10 is a three shot hole for most of us. It does appear longer from the right but more open.

         Anthony


David_Tepper

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2008, 12:46:27 PM »
Brian -

Where on the web did you find the layout plans for the Trump Scotland course?

I could not find them at www.trumpgolfscotland.com

DT

Tom Naccarato

Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2008, 12:51:12 PM »
I'm not real crazy about the lack of width, but it is--and this for Jean Paul-Parodi--reminscent de la magnifique 4ème trou au Lido....

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2008, 12:53:40 PM »
Bryan,

I saw the same thing....and either the first hole tee is omitted from the rendering, miles from the clubhouse, the mother of all carries on an opening tee shot.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Adam Clayman

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2008, 01:00:39 PM »
Brian. As David intimates no one has really seen the actual anything. However that shouldn't stop the speculation. So let me start. If the project in anyway emulates an American style the course it  will not be high on anyones gca hit list. The mere fact that there are plans implies its already on the wrong road visa vie overly constructed unless field changes are significant.  I wonder if some of the OM team could comment on the process and how much they worked with plans?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Rich Goodale

Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2008, 01:10:57 PM »
Brian -

Where on the web did you find the layout plans for the Trump Scotland course?

I could not find them at www.trumpgolfscotland.com

DT

David

I posted the link on the previous "Heeeere's Donald" thread.  lots of good stuff on there.

Rich

Tom Naccarato

Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2008, 01:12:57 PM »
Jean-Paul, Did you read and translate my French?

What do you think?

Rich Goodale

Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2008, 01:17:35 PM »
Here's the link for the plans, all the proceedings, etc.  Enjoy before you pontificate.

http://www.aberdeenshire.gov.uk/planning/inquiry/Revised%20hole%20by%20hole%20analysis%20of%20Golf%20Course%20Master%20Plan...Docuement%20T4.pdf

Thomas

Je ne connais assez bien le quatrieme a Lido.  C'etait bon?

r

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2008, 01:19:29 PM »
It looks like the greatest course in the world to me!

I'll say the prose for #10 sure is hard reading...

" but I guess provides limitless opportunities to shape the holes"
This isn't what made every other great course in Scotland great.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2008, 01:22:24 PM »
I now realize my courses need more iconic oddities......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom Naccarato

Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2008, 02:15:42 PM »
Here's the link for the plans, all the proceedings, etc.  Enjoy before you pontificate.

http://www.aberdeenshire.gov.uk/planning/inquiry/Revised%20hole%20by%20hole%20analysis%20of%20Golf%20Course%20Master%20Plan...Docuement%20T4.pdf

Thomas

Je ne connais assez bien le quatrieme a Lido.  C'etait bon?

r

Oui, mon ami, M. Parodi. Il a été un grand trou qui procède de l'Eden Lido. Je crois que la 4e est allé dans un Punchbowl vert semblable à celui de la 3ème Westhampton trou,

Merci beaucoup pour le lien et je vais le regarder plus tard, lorsque je reçois un certain temps, comme je suis à mon travail et la différence de M. Huckaby, le patron a tendance à froncer les sourcils quand je ne suis pas concentré sur le travail et mon attention est entièrement golf sur .....

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2008, 03:15:04 PM »
Don't these architects ever learn. Golf is not for the .0001% of the world that plays from the championship tees. Why are they creating courses for those people and letting the rest of the golfing world suffer? The split fairway 10th for example. Why would the majority of players even consider it? From the forward tees it significantly lengthens the hole and then adds a forced carry over water to the second shot. Besides this bit of ineptitude, you must notice that walking off the green takes you where? To the championship tees! I thought they walked in Scotland. Is The Donald forcing them into carts? Even RTJ II learned the lesson of what tees to place adjacent to the green and utilized it at Chambers Bay.

EDIT: I guess I must retract some of that. After following the link given in later posts which gives a different and more visible view, I see that a few forward tees are placed nearer the green than the championship tees. Interestingly, it would seem that play from some of the championship tees would endanger players on the preceeding green. E.g., #17.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 03:49:17 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Robert Thompson

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2008, 04:43:48 PM »
I'll say this about Hawtree's course here in Ontario -- it ain't wide. If width was what you were looking for, I don't think you'll find it in his designs. Not that it is too narrow -- not like the European Club. But his course here (Tarandowah) could have used some more width in some areas, as the fescue eats balls that are even slightly wayward.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2008, 05:03:15 PM »
The ponds throw me a bit. Purely for irrigation? Purely for play? I just don't tend to think of ponds when I think of links courses. Am I missing something?
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Michael Dugger

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2008, 05:12:34 PM »
All the water is horrendous.

Routing doesn't blow me away either, but it's hard to tell from what we've been provided with here....

Not surprised....
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Andy Levett

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2008, 06:11:57 PM »
I hate to say this but that #10 might be one of the worst holes I've ever seen a drawing of. 

It's the lido hole, somewhat, but that island off on the right is just a stupid place to hit the ball.  I don't understand the risk/reward proposition:

Play straight the straight, shorter and wider route and maybe it's reachable, or you can try to hit a skinnier island way off on the right and make it a 3 shot hole for yourself.   ::) ???
Well, let's give it the benefit of the doubt
It could be the one of the best holes you've ever seen a drawing of. That would be a classic - take the low road for a good lie and stance and a second/third along the line of the green,
Alternatively go take the high road for the shorter second and risk getting caught in all that sidehill/downhill/uphill funky mogul thang

Sean_A

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2008, 06:15:20 PM »
I don't know.  Reading the course description makes the course sound VERY interesting.  

For those beefing about the 10th, my bet is that the green is on view from the right fairway and blind (at least obscured by dunes) from the left fairway for anybody attempting to have a go in two.  For the big boys the design makes absolute sense.  I think the water by the right fairway is a natural wetland.  Having seen other Hawtree work recently I think the course will be difficult, but I am sure this is part of the brief if Trump is hoping to hold championships.  Having had a good walk around this land I don't see how this course can fail to be a stunner.

Ciao
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 06:17:04 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Chechesee Creek & Old Barnwell

Garland Bayley

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2008, 08:10:38 PM »
...The raft comes with a waterproof trunk for your clubs ...

 ??? My clubs are waterproof. It's my bag and other paraphernalia that I would want to keep dry.  :D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2008, 09:24:12 PM »
All the water is horrendous.
...

The claim is that the water is natural and pre-existing. It is simply too much in play on #2 and #8. On both holes, it is on the righty slice side. The typical landing zones for the big hitters will take the water out of play on these holes, but it is the average golfer that will have to deal with the water the most as the tees for them are positioned so the water will definitely be in play.

I don't know what their environmental restraints were, but it would seem #2 could have headed off to the left away from the pond/swamp and used the burn as a diagonal hazard. The further right you went, the longer distance you had before reaching the burn, and that gain was balanced by bringing you closer to the pond/swamp.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Lou_Duran

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2008, 09:38:20 PM »
I was under the impression that Fazio did the general routing and the local gca was fleshing it out.  Is my information inaccurate?

David_Tepper

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2008, 09:52:10 PM »
Lou D. -

Tommy Fazio was originally named as the GCA of record, but Trump switched to Martin Hawtree some months into the project. I do not know how much work Tommy F. actually did or how much of his work (if any) was incorporated into Hawtree's routing/design.

DT

PCCraig

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2008, 10:05:26 PM »
The layout looks alot like TOC - Kiawah.
H.P.S.

Tom Naccarato

Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2008, 10:20:54 PM »
Excuse me, but don't you guys think that instead of pointing and shooting first, that you should let them build it before criticizing it? The place hasn't even turned a shovel and suddenly its the worst course in the world. Its not like he is building it next to a prison, or that he wasn't taking advantage of the dunes....I mean can you guys even see the features that they aren't taking advantage of there?

To say this routing doesn't work for you is L-U-D-I-C-R-O-U-S! You've never even been there! Give the guy a F-U-C-K-I-N-G break.

I'll have you know that Hawtree redid the 3rd at Carnoustie and from accounts, its supposed to be a better hole then it was before. From my experience, they had trouble getting grass to grow on that fairway, let alone made it a somewhat competitive hole. Maybe Jean-Paul Parodi can further contribute the quality of golf there.



Brian_Ewen

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2008, 10:50:29 PM »
Tom
I agree with you , but I enjoy debate on courses that I am interested in .

And although I agree about the 3rd at Carnoustie , his work for next years Open at Turnberry has left me cold , and is not going down well with the locals .

In fact , by all reports Greg Norman will be brought in after the Open to redo it again .

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