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Tim Bert

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2008, 11:39:39 PM »
I hate to say this but that #10 might be one of the worst holes I've ever seen a drawing of. 

It's the lido hole, somewhat, but that island off on the right is just a stupid place to hit the ball.  I don't understand the risk/reward proposition:

Play straight the straight, shorter and wider route and maybe it's reachable, or you can try to hit a skinnier island way off on the right and make it a 3 shot hole for yourself.   ::) ???

You are overlooking the funnel aspect of the island fairway, which whirlpools all balls down to a small hole that funnels the ball under the water through a pipe and pops out on the green. 

Ian Larson

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2008, 11:50:32 PM »
Tommy is right. I for one think Trump is a tool and he is going to unleash his douchiness in grand scale when this gets built. And maybe the end product WILL give him the rights to douchiness. Who knows?

But for now it is way too early to start shooting it down. I would bet he plowed into this project obviously wanting to use Fazio. And because of the sensitivity of the project a little birdie advised him to go with the best in the British Isles (Hawtree) so he could atleast come away with some local respect.

I would have to think that Martin Hawtree will do a magnificent job, remember its not Trump himself designing it.  ;)

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2008, 12:28:57 AM »
Bryan,

I saw the same thing....and either the first hole tee is omitted from the rendering, miles from the clubhouse, the mother of all carries on an opening tee shot.

The tees seem to have faded in the overlay.  My bad.   ???  They are definitely there on the plan ........ about 150-200 yards south from the 9th green, on top of a dune ridge (the report says).  I'm guessing they found the teeing area, the valley for the fairway and the green location on the natural topography and went with a starting point that's a little way from the clubhouse.  Isn't that how natural/minimalist courses are built?

As to needing more "iconic oddities" on your courses, I'm not sure why your passing up on "impressionable"dunes.  Gotta get those dunes at a young age while you can still make an impression on them.   ;D

For whatever it's worth the hole description is from a report written by IronsideFarrar, Environmental Consultants.  Perhaps you just need to hire the right environmental consultants to help you with your marketing language.  ;)


« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 12:46:30 AM by Bryan Izatt »

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2008, 12:35:30 AM »
For those of you that have a hate on for The Donald, I'm with Tommy, let's give them a chance to build the course before piling on.  Perhaps Hawtree will get a relatively free hand to create.  And the property looks awesome.  So, chances are it's going to turn out well.  If not, then we can debate it as the greatest lost opportunity of all time.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2008, 12:41:17 AM »
The ponds throw me a bit. Purely for irrigation? Purely for play? I just don't tend to think of ponds when I think of links courses. Am I missing something?

Kirk,

I also noticed the number of "ponds".  Seems unlinks-like based on my experience.  I can think of many classic links with meandering burns, but none that have ponds or wetland areas.  Anybody think of any with natural wetland areas.  In any event, the wetlands (seasonally maybe shallow ponds-like) are there. As a naturalistic/minimalist design, don't they have to stay?  Is this site unique in Scottish links sites in having those wetland areas?

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2008, 12:54:27 AM »
Lou D. -

Tommy Fazio was originally named as the GCA of record, but Trump switched to Martin Hawtree some months into the project. I do not know how much work Tommy F. actually did or how much of his work (if any) was incorporated into Hawtree's routing/design.

DT

The third chapter - Hole-by-Hole Geomorphological Assesment - of the IronsideFarrar report does indicate how some of the holes have changed from previous plans, presumably from Fazio to Hawtree.  So, it sounds like there was a fully formed plan that Hawtree has revised.  For instance the 10th was described as being a dogleg in the previous plan.  The end of the report also has a summary table comparing the environmental impact of the Fazio and Hawtree courses.


Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2008, 01:14:26 AM »
Lou D. -

Tommy Fazio was originally named as the GCA of record, but Trump switched to Martin Hawtree some months into the project. I do not know how much work Tommy F. actually did or how much of his work (if any) was incorporated into Hawtree's routing/design.

DT

The third chapter - Hole-by-Hole Geomorphological Assesment - of the IronsideFarrar report does indicate how some of the holes have changed from previous plans, presumably from Fazio to Hawtree.  So, it sounds like there was a fully formed plan that Hawtree has revised.  For instance the 10th was described as being a dogleg in the previous plan.  The end of the report also has a summary table comparing the environmental impact of the Fazio and Hawtree courses.



I've only skimmed the report but it did seem to me the routings must have been similar for the comparison they made.  Also they were trying to show that the Hawtree Course had less land in cultivation and that has to impact on width and playability in wind - it's a considerable constraint on a site like this.

Im quite a Hawtree fan.  Bearwood Lakes, Cardigan and 9 new holes at the Milienium course in Portugal are all rather good.  But, at least from the drawing, the area that caught my eye are the fairways through that big sandy waste area. Desert Golf?


Can anyone point out where the second course wil sit...and the location of 'that' neighbours property?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 01:16:22 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Rob Rigg

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2008, 01:18:34 AM »
A quick read through on the link would suggest that some of the water is probably not in play due to the dunes systems.

This may not seem to be a standard links layout, but based on the hole descriptions it will probably be aesthetically spectacular. Until pictures start to come out during construction it is pretty tough to comment on the design.

I think many of the GCAs on the site would agree that routing diagrams do not make a course.

Tom Naccarato

Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2008, 01:23:23 AM »
Robb rig, or is it Rob Rigg, or is it....

Thank you! yes, routing maps don't make golf courses. Probably the smartest thing said on this thread!

Also, thanks for reminding me what I forgot to also reply on; if anyone was capable of reading, that area of lake--if it is going to be a lake--was environmentally sensitive land.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2008, 04:08:57 AM »
Tommy,

The "lake" is described as a "very irregular shallow lake" in the report.  It's in the SSSI area.  I'd imagine that they would leave it untouched in the interests of disturbing as little of the protected areas as possible.  The report says that the course will result in approx 18 hectares of direct habitat loss.  The "lake" on 10 doesn't appear to be part of that loss.


Tony,

I don't know where the second course would go.  Presumably up on the farmland to the west of the course?

Is this the 'that' neighbour property you're thinking of?  Right next (within 175 yards) to (overlooking) the proposed 8th hole?




Steve Lang

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2008, 05:45:54 AM »
 8) I'm surprized no one commented that the lakes would be used for supplying waterfalls?

If there is so much sand - dunes there, these marshes or wet areas have to be hydraulicly connected to the coastal waters.. are they reported to be fresh water or brackish?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 05:49:54 AM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Anthony Gray

Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2008, 08:07:44 AM »


    No. 10.-  Options of the tee are always a positive.

    Water (ponds)- If they are natural they have to stay. One of the courses at St Andrews that is beside TOC has a natural pond.

    Width- These holes look tight which is unlike most links courses. It appears that the front 9 and back 9 differ in width. Do you see the same thing?


                   Anthony


Tom Naccarato

Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2008, 09:04:15 AM »
Bryan,
From what I saw on Bryant Gumble's HBO show, who did an episode on the issues at hand, yes, that does look like the place.

I can't blame the man for not wanting to lose his beautiful automotive "garden." ::)

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2008, 09:42:04 AM »
The layout looks alot like TOC - Kiawah.

The Donald needs to write his royalty check to:
The Ocean Course
Kiawah Island Golf Resort
1000 Ocean Course Drive
Kiawah Island, SC  29455

It's virtually identical...

Anthony Gray

Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2008, 10:11:43 AM »
The layout looks alot like TOC - Kiawah.

The Donald needs to write his royalty check to:
The Ocean Course
Kiawah Island Golf Resort
1000 Ocean Course Drive
Kiawah Island, SC  29455

It's virtually identical...

   Mike,

   The ocean course has ponds and running water also. Are the ponds man made or natural?

          Thanks Mike............ Anthony


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2008, 10:59:34 AM »
Excuse me, but don't you guys think that instead of pointing and shooting first, that you should let them build it before criticizing it? The place hasn't even turned a shovel and suddenly its the worst course in the world. ...


Worst course in the world? Bit of hyperbole there, eh Tommy? As for the criticism, I would hope they had much of the same discussion during their design phase, and already have their answers for most of it. In fact they might be basking in the criticism. AM felt the best holes were the ones that garnered the most criticism.

I value this site for the free flow of ideas about courses built and being built. I devalue this site when course criticism turns to personal, or vindictive. Shivas perhaps had the most negative criticism of the 10th hole, but I see it as expressing an honest opinion, and not anything to be discouraged.

So Tommy, as you see, I beg to differ. Let the critiques continue.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Anthony Gray

Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2008, 11:04:16 AM »


  Does anyone know if it will be open for public play?


Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2008, 10:45:54 AM »
The layout looks alot like TOC - Kiawah.

The Donald needs to write his royalty check to:
The Ocean Course
Kiawah Island Golf Resort
1000 Ocean Course Drive
Kiawah Island, SC  29455

It's virtually identical...

   Mike,

   The ocean course has ponds and running water also. Are the ponds man made or natural?

          Thanks Mike............ Anthony



There were many natural ponds and waterways on the site but many were destroyed/filled with debris by Huricane Hugo as it roared through during construction.  A good portion of the construction costs was in restoring many of those ponds.  Some were man-made like the one in front of No. 17 and a number of them in the middle of the course...

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2009, 09:45:24 AM »
Bump...

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2010, 12:08:27 PM »

With the other thread going about final approval of the building of the course, I thought I'd resurrect this one to see if there is any discussion debate about the design and layout of the course.  

From the links to the planning commission it appears that the course layout has been altered a bit from a year ago to accommodate preservation of more natural areas.  It's interesting to look at the topo map in conjunction with the layout and the aerial view.

Getting back to the 10th hole, here is the overlay of the hole on the Google aerial.  The current modified design for this hole is very close to this version with the exception that they appear to have recognized that they needed to connect the island fairway to the left hand fairway.



For fun, and to try to better understand the design intent, I overlaid the 10th hole onto the topo map.  The island fairway to the right now makes a little more sense.  Although it is longer to go that way, it does provide a head on approach up a 20 to 30 foot ridge to the green on the second shot.  Playing the left fairway appears to offer two challenges - how to keep the drive in a fairway sloped left to right toward the water and in a bottleneck created by the ridge to the left and the natural wetland to the right; and how to play a second shot across the ridge that leads up to the green.  The green appears to be in a nice dell nestled in below a massive 50 foot dune on the right.  Looks like it could be a interesting and challenging and picturesque par 5.





« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 12:20:50 PM by Bryan Izatt »

Garland Bayley

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2010, 12:29:47 PM »
Any info on the widths of the fairway as you progress tee to green?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Niall C

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2010, 12:35:18 PM »
I could be wrong but I can't see many taking the right hand route particularly when the wind is up which would probably be quite often. It looks like the play is up the left on the bunker but short followed by a second taking the line of the fairway to the widest part and then a bunt onto the green for the third.

To take on the green with the second from the left handside you would have to go over the edge of the dune/rough and play onto a down slope sideways. A bit like the approach to the 7trh at Silloth from the right hand side of the fairway.

What I'd like to know is how do you walk the hole if you go for the right hand fairway, it looks a fairly roundabout route to get back on track.

Niall

Anthony Gray

Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2010, 12:52:17 PM »


  That right piece of fairway looks like the long way home.

  ARG


Niall C

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2010, 01:37:02 PM »
Quite. Is it supposed to be easier to hit with a driver than the fairway on the left at a similar distance ?

Niall

Brian_Ewen

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Re: Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2010, 09:04:41 AM »
I suspect a better line , and view into the green also ?