Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout

[Bryan Izatt]

To return briefly to the start of this thread and the initial discussion about the merits of the proposed 10th hole with its alternate fairway, I found this photo on the Trump site that I believe shows the the site of the 10th looking from behind the green site back down the fairway.  The green site and approaches look really good.  Still not sure about the alternate fairway concept, but it becomes clearer that driving to the right fairway gives a better view of the green through the valley between the dunes. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

To return briefly to the start of this thread and the initial discussion about the merits of the proposed 10th hole with its alternate fairway, I found this photo on the Trump site that I believe shows the the site of the 10th looking from behind the green site back down the fairway.  The green site and approaches look really good.  Still not sure about the alternate fairway concept, but it becomes clearer that driving to the right fairway gives a better view of the green through the valley between the dunes. 

Bryan,

That is the 10th green site indeed... The visibility is exactly as you state... I know there was discussion about making the right fairway option more desirable than shown in the masterplan... Trying to find that balance to get people going both ways...

Returning to Robin's point about sodding the greens to prevent sand blow, I was told that in one night the sand formation at the 10th green site changed so much as to be unrecognisable from the day before.

[Brian Phillips]

I'm pretty sure the turf has come from Tillers in Lincolnshire, and I know they offer greens turf grown on USGA rootzone

I have used Tillers turf all the way over here in Norway and although it is a superb supplier I find it ridiculous that they have turfed the greens.  Unless of the course the greens have been built to USGA recommendations (which is even more ridiculous).

If the greens have been sodded with Tillers (from a USGA medium) on top of a links sand then there could be problems later on as links sand is "normally" finer than a USGA sand.  If George Shiels (he normally works with Hawtree) is involved as the agronomist I would be very surprised if he recommended turfing as he is not a great fan of it and certainly is not a fan of washed turf.

[Brian Phillips]

It's certainly possible to be playing next summer, if they get all the fairways planted in the next 6-8 weeks.  Otherwise, it's going to be pretty scruffy next June.  It's impossible to push fescue to mature, especially in the spring in the cool Scottish climate, so the grass will need to be well established this fall if they want good conditions next June.

Unless a lot of Rye has been sneaked in by Trump.

[Will Lozier]

I haven't read this whole stream and I am sure that y'all have noticed already from the pic with the stake marking the tee on #14, but it looks like ALL of the FASCINATING rolls in the natural valley have been decimated!  So SAD!  Could have maybe had some Deal size humps AND dips.  It seems everyone involved has ignored the very thing that makes a true links so fun to play - natural ground forms.  I don't understand!

[Niall C]

"Returning to Robin's point about sodding the greens to prevent sand blow, I was told that in one night the sand formation at the 10th green site changed so much as to be unrecognisable from the day before."

Ally

That reminds me of the story they tell about John Philps, the greenkeeper up at Carnoustie who is known to detest the stands of pine trees in the middle of the course. They say that every stormy night John gets his chainsaw out and then reports into the links office in the morning to advise that another couple of trees had been last in the previous nights storm.

i wonder if similar kiddology is being used on the authorities so that they can shift a bit more sand than allowed........or alternatively, maybe they really are shifting dune systems !

Niall

[Brian Phillips]

I haven't read this whole stream and I am sure that y'all have noticed already from the pic with the stake marking the tee on #14, but it looks like ALL of the FASCINATING rolls in the natural valley have been decimated!  So SAD!  Could have maybe had some Deal size humps AND dips.  It seems everyone involved has ignored the very thing that makes a true links so fun to play - natural ground forms.  I don't understand!

Quite outstanding what has been done on that fairway.

[Alister Matheson]

I haven't read this whole stream and I am sure that y'all have noticed already from the pic with the stake marking the tee on #14, but it looks like ALL of the FASCINATING rolls in the natural valley have been decimated!  So SAD!  Could have maybe had some Deal size humps AND dips.  It seems everyone involved has ignored the very thing that makes a true links so fun to play - natural ground forms.  I don't understand!

Quite outstanding what has been done on that fairway.

I think i will reserve final jugement until i see it in the flesh ! I took the top photo whilst on a tour and the natural shapes spines/humps /hollows were outstanding !The shaped fairway behind Donald does look flat BUT lets wait and see ehh !
Alister

[Kris Shreiner]

Will,

I think you need to look closer...there is plenty of heaving and rumple in that picture. The pale coloration of the sand makes it harder to distinguish, but it certainly seems to have quite a bit to my eyes. Remember, the wind will shift and move that sand BIGTIME. in days, if it's really blowing. Many architects actually like the wind to shape and do some contouring naturally before turfing or seeding the areas.

I'm quite impressed by what I see thus far, the width seems a bit suspect with the fierce winds that part of Scotland can experince quite frequently, and the very heavy dune grass directly next to fairway lines could be penal, but we must allow for a finished product before final evaluations.

Cheers,
Kris

[Neil_Crafter]

A few pics from the beach :

While we are on rumple watch - doesn't look to me like there is much rumple in these two fairways

[Ally Mcintosh]

"Returning to Robin's point about sodding the greens to prevent sand blow, I was told that in one night the sand formation at the 10th green site changed so much as to be unrecognisable from the day before."

Ally

That reminds me of the story they tell about John Philps, the greenkeeper up at Carnoustie who is known to detest the stands of pine trees in the middle of the course. They say that every stormy night John gets his chainsaw out and then reports into the links office in the morning to advise that another couple of trees had been last in the previous nights storm.

i wonder if similar kiddology is being used on the authorities so that they can shift a bit more sand than allowed........or alternatively, maybe they really are shifting dune systems !

Niall

Mr. Carlton - That is cynicism of the highest order!... Sand blows around if not bound by grass or vegetation...

I'd forgotten about that original photo from 14 tees... There's softening and then there's flattening...

[Mark Pearce]

It's no secret Trump wants the Open.  Most of the current Open rota courses have relatively flat fairways.  It's no coincidence that the rota course the pros appear to like least, RSG, also has perhaps the most movement in its fairways.  Seems to me that flat fairways have been prescribed to make the course tour pro friendly, in the hope of persuading the R&A that it deserves the Open at some stage.  If the degree of flattening is as great as these phots suggest, it would appear that Trump and Hawtree have drawn a moustache on the Mona Lisa.

[Kris Shreiner]

Ally,

What are you looking at? There are plenty of folds, depressions and small ridges in both of those photos. I don't believe we are looking at finished holes either. They may not have the undulations of a moto-cross track, but there is plenty there to influence the run of the ball.

Mr.Pearce also raises another excellent point. Wild rumple may excite the quirk enthusiasts, and I count myself among them so long as it doesn't range to the bizarre, but you generally don't get an excessive amount of that influence on Open Rota courses. Mr. Trump is thirsting for a Major, as he has made that goal a priority.

Let's at least give the Trumposity Course time to reveal it's finished look before we make our final judgements. My only observation was it looks pretty impressive on the surface(pardon the pun ) so far...it was not a premature verdict on greatness, as that remains to be determined.

Cheers,
 Kris

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally,

What are you looking at? There are plenty of folds, depressions and small ridges in both of those photos. I don't believe we are looking at finished holes either. They may not have the undulations of a moto-cross track, but there is plenty there to influence the run of the ball.

Mr.Pearce also raises another excellent point. Wild rumple may excite the quirk enthusiasts, and I count myself among them so long as it doesn't range to the bizarre, but you generally don't get an excessive amount of that influence on Open Rota courses. Mr. Trump is thirsting for a Major, as he has made that goal a priority.

Let's at least give the Trumposity Course time to reveal it's finished look before we make our final judgements. My only observation was it looks pretty impressive on the surface(pardon the pun ) so far...it was not a premature verdict on greatness, as that remains to be determined.

Cheers,
 Kris

My word... A man holds up one of the lone voices of positivity through 110 posts and the first sign of dissent and he's shot down!

From these photo's, it appears the fairway contours on 14 have been changed dramatically Kris... Incidentally, I'm not one of the ones who indicated that this definitely shouldn't be done and Mark's point is well made... However my personal preference is to soften first rather than grade the lot and then shape... The movement just may not have worked on this hole though...

[Brian_Ewen]

It's no secret Trump wants the Open. 

I think he has given up hope of the Open .... for now !

Its the Ryder Cup he really wants.

[Niall C]

Ally

In fairness I think I've heard enough nonsense coming out of the Trump organisation to be allowed a bit of cynicism 

With regards to rumple, if its playing hard and fast you won't need much to create interest. Whether that interest leads to any strategic plays remains to be seen but that photo suggests that the 14th is all simply about being on one side or other of the fairway to get round the greenside bunker depending on the hole position.

Mark,

As I've mentioned on other threads, there's no doubt the R&A are, or at least have been very wary about links courses hosting major championships other than the Open as it might dilute the Open brand. I think that would be more of a factor than any issue about the amount of contours on the fairway (that and the usual issues of quality/length of course, infrastructure etc).

Niall

[Brian Phillips]

If many of the holes are as pictured with very high tees in realtion to the fairway, they are going to have lots of problems with playability no matter how wide the fairways are, especially in Aberdeen.

Ask anyone how it is to play the front nine at Royal Aberdeen of some of the high tees they have on the way out.  The tees at Trump seem to be even more elevated and open to the wind.

[Brian_Ewen]

Well I think Mr Trump will have got a good idea what an Aberdeen summer is like, this week 

[Kris Shreiner]

Ally,

My points weren't made to "shoot you down." They were just observations and no malice was intended.

Brian Phillips,

I totally agree and made the same comment on another thread related to this project. That's why, from my view, unless they want the Balmeanie Death March, they need to widen those fairways some or soften the grass density at the perimeter edges at the very least!

It will be very interesting what the tariff is to play the "greatest course in the world." Does it blow right by the 150 quid that CS christened their opening with in the Highlands? Does he peg it North of KB or Muirfield's large downstrokes? Watch the rate creep unfold, as Royal Aberdeen and Cruden are sure to jack theirs accordingly. It happened already at RD, Brora and the rest shortly after CS opened, and that was before they got the Scottish Open. Rates will surely be dropping now. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

I know there was no malice intended Kris... I just refuse to use one of those little winky faces...

The fairway corridors should play fairly wide in most cases, on the back nine anyway... I didn't see a problem with 14 when I visited and as soon as you start to put human foot traffic (or one gang-mow) over that marram at the foot of the hills where it ties to the new grade, then it will thin out...

Brian - 14 is an elevated tee (and a more spectacular one for not having to climb to reach it from 13 green)... There are a few others but there are also a large number of tees sheltered... There are plenty of courses where wind plays havoc more than it will on this one...

[Marty Bonnar]

Just an eensy-weensy little typical anal FBD observation, but why-oh-why do the guys who sprig the marram INSIST on doing it all so freekin EVENLY spaced. Dat's 'orrible.
TAKE a look at NATURE, boys...
Man, I need to get out more.
FBD.

[Brian_Ewen]

Just an eensy-weensy little typical anal FBD observation, but why-oh-why do the guys who sprig the marram INSIST on doing it all so freekin EVENLY spaced. Dat's 'orrible.

I just presumed it had been done by machine ?

[Ian Andrew]

I haven't read this whole stream and I am sure that y'all have noticed already from the pic with the stake marking the tee on #14, but it looks like ALL of the FASCINATING rolls in the natural valley have been decimated!  So SAD!  Could have maybe had some Deal size humps AND dips.  It seems everyone involved has ignored the very thing that makes a true links so fun to play - natural ground forms.  I don't understand!

Isn't that what his father did at Birkdale?

[Tom_Doak]

Returning to Robin's point about sodding the greens to prevent sand blow, I was told that in one night the sand formation at the 10th green site changed so much as to be unrecognisable from the day before.

Ally:

I do have a bit of experience with building golf courses in sand dunes in very windy places ... I suspect more than anyone on this board.

Yes, it is possible for the sand to get blown around overnight, right up until you plant the green.  This is true whether you are sodding or seeding.  But, once the irrigation is in place and you can keep the green watered -- and I must assume they had irrigation in place before sodding -- then it is entirely possible to keep the green contours from changing by hydroseeding.  I can assure you it's worked on four courses in Bandon, on two courses at Barnbougle, and at other windy sites in Texas, New Zealand, Colorado, and the Hamptons.

Sodding greens is expensive and unreliable, no matter who supplies the sod.

[Michael Whitaker]

Sodding greens is expensive...

Maybe that's the point!