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Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ravisloe for sale
« on: November 18, 2008, 04:36:32 PM »
It's official. $4,950,000 asking price through a Chicago-area broker. 160 acres, so it's only $31,250 per acre. Everything included.
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john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2008, 05:05:28 PM »
Only $5 million.     A nice track, and the restoration/renovation by Esler was good.    And they have a substantial old school clubhouse with a solid men's locker room.  I had a wonderful day at Ravisloe.

Guess I was hoping some deep pocket would buy before it hit the market and at least make it a course I could never play again.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2008, 05:12:33 PM »
Paging Donald Trump. ;D
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2008, 07:54:43 PM »
Pretty Cheap all things considered. Granted the RE is on the South Side, but you have to think some rich dude would buy it to make it his personal playground.

If nothing else why wouldn't U of C buy it for a school golf course?
H.P.S.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2008, 07:56:09 PM »
What's it zoned for ?

John Kavanaugh

Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2008, 08:00:15 PM »
I've sent an email to Louis Farrakhan at the Nation of Islam suggesting his church purchase the course.  I honestly believe this would be an excellent outreach for his organization and the Chicago Community.  As I said in my email it is through golf that I first was exposed to my Jewish brothers and have gained understanding, tolerance and compassion though this great game.  I think golf could do the same for his followers.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2008, 08:20:30 PM »
I think it would be great if we all took a second to express to the Nation of Islam why golf is one of lifes great ambassadors.  Perhaps with our help we can all take one more step towards a better world.  The link for communication is: http://www.noi.org/letters/

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2008, 08:40:54 PM »
John,

I think you should be the ambassador between the Jewish Country Club and the Nation of Islam. This could be your niche John.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2008, 08:58:18 PM »
John,

I think you should be the ambassador between the Jewish Country Club and the Nation of Islam. This could be your niche John.

I'll 2nd that
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

John Kavanaugh

Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2008, 08:59:18 PM »
John,

I think you should be the ambassador between the Jewish Country Club and the Nation of Islam. This could be your niche John.

I am afraid the sale is sans the Jewish members.  It is now nothing more but a golf course in need of a loving owner.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2008, 09:02:14 PM »
I don't blame the equity members for trying to sell but I wonder if the semi-private model as used in GB&I would have worked here.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

John Kavanaugh

Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2008, 09:05:01 PM »
I don't blame the equity members for trying to sell but I wonder if the semi-private model as used in GB&I would have worked here.

Not with Harborside so close.  Anyone with half a connection would play Beverly or Olympia when nearby.  I lived in Chicago for ten years and never even heard of the place.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2008, 09:09:14 PM »
John,

You were out of the loop then.  :D  Did you play at Twin Orchard or Hillcrest?

I'm in Philadelphia and visit Chicago and I've heard of Ravisloe.I've never played there.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

John Kavanaugh

Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2008, 09:33:40 PM »
John,

You were out of the loop then.  :D  Did you play at Twin Orchard or Hillcrest?

I'm in Philadelphia and visit Chicago and I've heard of Ravisloe.I've never played there.



I was a North Shore guy living in Northbrook, Waukegan and Gurnee while working in Lincolnshire.  If I ever did play those courses I do not recall.  I will recognize that the urban golf lifestyle is not something that I ever would wish to return.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2008, 09:35:44 PM »
hahaha nice John!

Imagine Rumble Louie rocking the clubhouse.
H.P.S.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2008, 11:39:18 AM »
I would also add the excellent but underated Flossmoor Country Club to the local good courses. FCC was the venue of the 1920 USPGA as well as the 1923 US Amateur.
Cave Nil Vino

John Kavanaugh

Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2008, 12:17:17 PM »
This is a copy of the text that I sent to the Nation of Islam.  I hope more can follow me in the excellent effort to improve the game and the world where we live.

Dear Sirs,

I am a golfer living in Southern Illinois who is interested in furthering the momentum our Country is currently experiencing in the realm of race relations.  I have noticed that a golf course near your Chicago headquarters has recently become for sale due to financial difficulties due to what they call a changing neighborhood.  The course is Ravisloe and was founded as a Jewish club.  I have been fortuneate myself to have developed many friendships, respect and compassion for those who may not look like me or pray to the same God through golf on its field of play.  I have no financial interest in the course and have not ever even played there.  At a cost of under $5,000,000 or $31,000 per acre I see the course as an excellent fit for both the world of golf and Nation of Islam.  Please consider the possibilities.

Thank you,

John Kavanaugh

tlavin

Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2008, 12:17:53 PM »
The following clubs are all located within several miles of each other in the South Suburbs: Calumet, Ravisloe, Flossmoor, Idlewild and Olympia Fields.  Calumet has approximately ten holes left from its Donald Ross design.  Ravisloe was a Ross that was elegantly renovated by David Esler about six years back.  Flossmoor is a beguiling 1899 layout designed by Fowler and Tweedie that is being dramatically renovated by Ray Hearn.  Olympia has the North, designed by Willie Park, Jr. and renovated by Mark Mungeam and the South, which is an amalgam of three courses designed by Watson and Bendelow, recently renovated in stirring fashion by Steve Smyers.  Idlewild is a pleasant, but architecturally non-descript golf course that is generally in pretty good condition and an adequate member course.   I lived in the area for many years and it has long been a golf haven, but the demographics/economics in the area are very treacherous.  It is still a shock to me that Ravisloe was the first to go, but everybody has been waiting for the first victim to reveal itself.  I would put the chances of Ravisloe being resurrected at less than 20%.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2008, 12:55:49 PM »
Shiv,

I think Green Acres is too low. I always heard 'Green Acres is the Place to Be!"
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2008, 12:57:43 PM »
IMO, the qualitative order of the predominatly Jewish golf courses in Chicago is:

Briarwood, thanks to Shelly
Northmoor
Idlewild
Lake Shore
Ravisloe
Twin Orchard Red
Hillcrest
Bryn Mawr
Twin Orchard White
Green Acres
Ravinia Greens

Shivas-

Of all of those, I probably liked Lake Shore the best. While the front nine there is pretty blah, they have a nice back nine playing around a ravine.

I like Northmore too, or at least the nine holes that had already been renovated at the time. Fast greens.

I don't know what it is, but I have never been a huge fan of Briarwood.

Have you played Green Acres since the renovation?
H.P.S.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2008, 01:03:12 PM »

I don't know what it is, but I have never been a huge fan of Briarwood.


Now that I do not understand.  I believe Briarwood is one of the finest clubs I have ever played.  I'm still looking for a picture of that pool house or information on the architect, of the pool house.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2008, 01:14:36 PM »
If nothing else why wouldn't U of C buy it for a school golf course?

Pat:
Was this a joke?  U of C is about the last university I could see buying a  golf course for the school. 

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2008, 01:18:42 PM »
If nothing else why wouldn't U of C buy it for a school golf course?

Pat:
Was this a joke?  U of C is about the last university I could see buying a  golf course for the school. 

It was a joke. However U of C is buying everything else on the south side.
H.P.S.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2008, 01:20:19 PM »
OT, but here in DFW, the prime Jewish club - Columbian Club - is remodeling and rebranding as an exclusive golf club without any affiliations.  D magazine said it was a signal of the decline of Jewish culture in the city.  The clubhouse was scene to many of the top Jewish functions, like Debutant balls, etc. but is being totally revamped and downsized.

From the golf side, they say that they will give it a few years to succeed (I think they gave away some memberships to local celebs to draw others in) If it doesn't work they are sitting on about 300 prime acres of real estate and they will just sell it off, according to news reports (since I am not involved in the reno)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ravisloe for sale
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2008, 02:52:34 PM »
I have been pretty busy so I have been off line for awhile.  However I have to respond as I grew up 10 minutes away from Ravisloe and my folks joined Idlewild when I was 17 and stayed until they retired to Florida.  As such I am familiar with the clubs in question.

First, notwithstanding my friend Barney's attempts, there is nothing funny about this situation.  Ravisloe was formed around the turn of the 20th century.  It was featured in Alec Bauer's book "Hazards".  A lot of families had wonderful experiences there.  the President of the club who had to close it down is a good friend.  While it is only a country club, there are human stories involved, not just for the members and former members, but also for the employees.

That having been said, economics drove the decision and there are likely to be others that fail.  Current conditions will only accelerate the issue.  When most of these clubs were built (pre 1925) country clubs were exactly that, clubs in the country.  Suburbs were small and transportation was difficult.  Thus clubs were accessible by train and often had housing so that members could stay for days.  Not quite Sand Hills but similar in concept for the time.

The wealth in Chicago was concentrated in a few areas.  There was a significant pocket on the South Side and, because neighborhoods were often ethnically homogenous, a significant Jewish community was focused  in and around Hyde Park and South Shore.  Direct train routes to the North Suburbs were nonexistent from those neighborhoods so Ravisloe and Idlewild were built in Homewood and Flossmoor to serve the wealthy in those communities.  Similarly, restricted clubs Calumet, Flossmoor and Olympia Fields were built to service the gentile south side wealth along with Beverly in the city.

Overtime, most of the south side wealth move north and west.  Only a smal fraction stayed in the old neighborhoods and a small group went to the south suburbs.  For at least 40 years all of the clubs in the south suburbs have faced a deteriorating market for new members.  Clubs wishing to stay predominantly Jewish had a bigger struggle.  Olympia Fields has done the best by marketing its outstanding courses but its need for a large number of members remains a challenge.  The others have cut initiation fees and other costs.  Idlewild is no longer a "jewish" club.  Other clubs who would not countenance jews or blacks etc have opened their memberships (nothing wrong with any of this by the way).  But the demographics likely dictate others will fail.  At the end Ravisloe had less than 90 full dues paying members.

The public option is tough for Ravisloe.  Harborside is not very close but the park district has a pretty good track called Coyote Run which has public funding.  Glenwoodie is nearby and Cog Hill, Geoge Dunne and others are not far away.

On the other hand, the housing market isn't great so there is no great demand by developers at this point.

It was a nice old club with an interesting course.  My friend Dave Esler did a fine job when he was brought in.  I hope it survives.  It was worth playing in its own right and as a reminder of an older and quirkier time in course design.