[Mike Benham]

Should a good course provide an advantage to the golfer that understands the strategy of the hole and takes it into account, making strategic options subtle and difficult to understand?

a.)  How many plays of a hole does it take before you have the strategic options figured out?

b.)  How many plays of a hole does it take before you have the strategy figured out for your golf game?

After you have "a" and "b" figured out, does strategy still exist?

[Tom Naccarato]

Tommy, don't you think #12 Rustic Canyon plays at lot the same way?  Looks benign, can be a nightmare.

Panhandle Bill,
Absotootley! Especially last Saturday with the famed Redanman who got to see Rustic Canyon for the first time.

With the Santa Ana's blowing, and we are talking REALLY blowing, for the first time ever, I drive through the fairway--and most here know I'm not a long driver of the golf ball. Still, if you hit it too far, then you have to deal with that entire face of the right side of the putting surface, and honestly, it is not friendly. It's mean with teeth.

I was luck to walk away with double boogie after the green rejected two of my shots into it. All because I chose to try to drive the ball as far as i could. Not a smart play, but with that wind, it was worth the challenge!

[Jeff Fortson]

Ian,

Here is a link to a thread I did on #10 at Riviera.  I am providing the link so that you can get a better look at the hole.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,16619.msg289255.html#msg289255


Jeff F.

[Ian_L]

Thanks Jeff, I think that thread confirms (for me) my thought that the 10th satisfies both of my original questions.  The passive golfer is forced to choose whether or not to hit over the bunker or lay up short or left, while the thinking golfer may gain an advantage from playing safely left instead of flailing at the green (even if he can reach it), as he will often have a better angle to the green.

[Rob Rigg]

What kind of skill does a golfer need to actually employ strategy with realistic expectations that he can achieve it?

I only ask, because the initial question is a very good one. But if you look at the bell curve defining the skill level of the golfing public, most people do not have the ability to employ any real strategy, unless they want to play 7 iron from every tee.

eg) Split fairway. If you have a huge slice off the tee, you must aim left of the fairway and hope the ball bends back to the fairway on the right or left. This means your strategy has not changed one bit from your normal tee shot.

Sorry for the tangent.

[Nicholas Coppolo]

eg) Split fairway. If you have a huge slice off the tee, you must aim left of the fairway and hope the ball bends back to the fairway on the right or left. This means your strategy has not changed one bit from your normal tee shot.

Sorry for the tangent.

   I don't think this is the target demographic to appreciate the subtleties of design.  This individual needs to be in a safe, though not necessarily advantageous position after his 55 yard slice that he aims at the adjacent left fairway.  If this player plays an entire round, from essentially safe positions, but still scores +1.5 or so on each hole, I think he leaves satisfied and energized that he could shoot so much lower Next time.
    For the accomplished player, knowing you need to be in a small slot on the left hand side of a 50 yard fairway in order to have a uphill birdie put or in some cases even hold the green is as much as a mental challenge as any built or dictated hazard.  For the most part, the high handicap player doesn't expect to hit the green so just finding a fairway is an accomplishment in its self. 
  If the designer dictates the "strategy" of a hole from the tee, he forces the hand of the handicap player, while doing nothing for the accomplished player.  The Scratch player is automatically looking pin to tee and finding his line, whether its dictated or not.  Then after subsequent play he finds out whats best.
   

  I've always felt that the ideal course would have a rating like par 70  Rating 74.5 slope 118.  Where the scratch player is scratching his head and the 25 handicapper shoots 94 with the same golf ball.  I think much of this relates to how clearly dictated strategy adds mental strokes to all kinds of players by seeing that you have to hit a certain shot, rather than figuring it out later.

Now I apologize for the tangent.

[JESII]

Ian,

I have been stumped trying to make sense of just what you are asking...would a greater number of center-line hazards (to force the passive golfer into a decision) on holes that offer a subtle strategic advantage to one side or the other (for better players consideration) accomplish what you are looking for?

[RJ_Daley]

Subtle strategy that gives advantage to the accomplished golfer can and should be a goal in design of great golf courses (private or CCFADs that wish to market to a higher end of accomplishment golfer i.e. Whistling Straits, BWR, Bandon resorts etc).   CCFAD and Resorts that wish to be highly commercial and appeal to the resorter on a golf holiday mentality - not necessarily serious golfers - should be designed for the more obvious.

I think that often, it doesn't take a centerline hazard like a bunker or water to create subtle strategy.  It can be accomplished with a properly contoured and wide FW, with a properly contoured and shaped green.  The old speed slots, turbo boosts and FWs on the diagonal, to a counter-intuitive green config is possibly the way to have both a course where subtle strategy is a matter of repeated play for the accomplished player and an obvious path to a green that often doesn't perform as expected yet is still a way to go as seen by the less accomplished, albeit an unexpected bogie to the less skilled will often result due to not knowing/recognizing the place to miss it.

At some point, familiarity of repeated play breeds complacency or a command of the previously 'not so obvious'.  Like the players that have been to the Masters several times, they start to learn that there are subtle strategies that aren't picked up on, the first visits.  Of course, word of mouth and public always watching takes away that subtle and learned strategy when the announcers and books talk about things like the player on 12 tee waiting until they feel a wind on their left cheek and all that type of lore...

[Ian_L]

Ian,

I have been stumped trying to make sense of just what you are asking...would a greater number of center-line hazards (to force the passive golfer into a decision) on holes that offer a subtle strategic advantage to one side or the other (for better players consideration) accomplish what you are looking for?

Yes, I suppose that would fulfill both requirements.  My bigger question is, is this what the architect should strive for?

[JESII]

I think trying to be all things to all people is a recipe for disaster...but it would certainly be a lofty accomplishment.

[Scott Witter]

JES II:

To a certain extend you have a point, but you won't blame us architects for at least exploring all of the options that we and Mother Nature can congure up would you?  I am not being critical of your post, but rather thankful you have posed this thought--sort of surprised it didn't come up sooner with all of the cynics on board here   I think having the goal to achieve a strategic balance for as many golfers as possible should at the fore front of every architects mind, or they are doing a dis-service to the game and their client.  How it is achieved, or conceived by the architect and their band of merry souls, is well at the heart of their vison, skill and a direct reflection of the freedom/flexibility the client has offered them in land and budget.

I can't agree, however, with your last reply to Ian re: centerline hazards.  Sure, this can work, but  if the land is available and the budget to support it, I am convinced that both obvious and subtle strategic featuring can be obtained for the golfers you note and make their experience that much more engaging and fun.  I am not so concerned about whether or not they understand what specifically engaged them or why they loved a series of holes or the course as a whole, but more so on the impression they walked away with and their perception and feeling that they can't wait to come back.

Lets put it this way, with all of the exposure, written word and pictures on Wolf Point, Mike Nuzzo's course, I have to say that it really intrigues me to play it.  There appears, anyway, to be a lot of interesting character and considerable thought applied to design strategy and playing interest at all levels sufficient to get under the skin of just about anyone who cares to tee it up.  I could be way off base, but I have good feeling about this course and hope this turns out to be what Mike and Don had invisioned.

[Kirk Gill]

Should a good course provide an advantage to the golfer that understands the strategy of the hole and takes it into account, making strategic options subtle and difficult to understand?

a.)  How many plays of a hole does it take before you have the strategic options figured out?

b.)  How many plays of a hole does it take before you have the strategy figured out for your golf game?

After you have "a" and "b" figured out, does strategy still exist?

An interesting question, Mike. My opinion is that yes, the strategy still exists.

There's a few ways that a course can enthrall you once you've "figured out" the basic strategy that works for you on each hole. One is the variability of conditions based on time of year, wind, etc. Another might be the burgeoning ego of the golfer as he believes that he HAS figured everything out (or as his skill level increases), trying out his game on a shot that prudent strategy would declare to be too risky. As long as there are options to the way a hole can be played, the variables of a given day may elicit a different decision from the player than on another day, and thus the strategy is still existing..........

[JESII]

Thanks Scott,

Keep in mind, I am still trying to filter the question through so I might not have a clear picture yet of just what Ian has asked.

Also, I'll agree that every golf course has too diverse a clientelle to simply build for one type...that's not really what I was suggesting anyway. I was more suggesting that each architect has their own style and vision of the game and each site should would elicit a somewhat varied twist on that vision.

I can't agree, however, with your last reply to Ian re: centerline hazards.  Sure, this can work, but  if the land is available and the budget to support it, I am convinced that both obvious and subtle strategic featuring can be obtained for the golfers you note and make their experience that much more engaging and fun. 

This is the type of 19th hole discussion I like to have on here...let's dig into this statement a little because I am a bit skeptical. Not of your ambition but more the fact that (in my opinion) so few holes actually do this. Lets pick a specific hole or two that we (thoughtful golfers) can all agree are good strategic holes that also likely engage the passive golfer at a higher level and will encourage their return...and maybe even help them become more active golfers...

[Jim_Kennedy]

"Options. Options. Options"
___________________________________________________
"Complex greens requir(ing( experience to know the best angle to attack the pin."
__________________________________________________
...."he might think about the implications of placing his ball in different parts of the fairway to get a good angle at the pin, for example."
___________________________________________________
"This strategy of course shouldn't be obvious to them while standing over the shot"......
____________________________________________________
"How many plays of a hole does it take before you have the strategic options figured out?"
______________________________________________________
"Still, if you hit it too far, then you have to deal with that entire face of the right side of the putting surface".....
_______________________________________________________
"Isn't it hard to design in that C option"
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"What kind of skill does a golfer need to actually employ strategy with realistic expectations that he can achieve it?"

After considering some of the above remarks, I am wondering  how much easier, or harder, is it to design par 3s ?  They almost seem like 'breather' holes for architects, with no varying angles of attack to consider. 

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